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Post  johndickjr on July 28th 2011, 11:09 am

would it be ok to make a front plate into 2 pieces and mount them to the heads instead of mounting them to the front cover..but if i mount it to the front cover do i still have to use the water pump backing plate

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Post  Wheelie58 on July 28th 2011, 12:00 pm

Some folks do that....mounting motor plates to the heads, instead of the timing cover.
Down side is that you have extra work, if you just want to pull the heads for maintenance. Also, if you swap heads to a different type, the bolt pattern may not be exactly the same.
I do not believe that you need to use the pump back plate, but I will ask some of the "stock water pump" crowd to help on that question. Some of the aftermarket pumps have their own back plate that should be used.
My preferred method is to make your plate mount to the water pump mounting surface and then make spacers to tie-in one bolt hole on the end of each head to take the load off the 5/16" bolts. That really firms things up and you can pull the heads easily without disturbing the mounting of the engine.

Keith


Last edited by Wheelie58 on July 28th 2011, 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : secret)
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Post  johndickjr on July 28th 2011, 12:14 pm

Wheelie58 wrote:Some folks do that....mounting motor plates to the heads, instead of the timing cover.
Down side is that you have extra work, if you just want to pull the heads for maintenance. Also, if you swap heads to a different type, the bolt pattern may not be exactly the same.
I do not believe that you need to use the pump back plate, but I will ask some of the "stock water pump" crowd to help on that question. Some of the aftermarket pumps have their own back plate that should be used.
My preferred method is to make your plate mount to the water pump mounting surface and then make spacers to tie-in one bolt hole on the end of each head to take the load off the 5/16" bolts. That really firms things up and you can pull the heads easily without disturbing the mounting of the engine.

Keith
this car is a budget build, at one time it had a bbc in it..they cut the motor mount pad out so i cant use mounts, i have some material for the plate but i am limited to the tools i currently have to make a plate, i may try the normal way, it just looks a lot easier to mount it to the heads... i can buy a plate for 75-125, but why do that when i can make it for free, the heads are c9 heads , they will be on the car forever,

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Post  460FOXTECH on July 28th 2011, 1:06 pm

johndickjr wrote:
Wheelie58 wrote:Some folks do that....mounting motor plates to the heads, instead of the timing cover.
Down side is that you have extra work, if you just want to pull the heads for maintenance. Also, if you swap heads to a different type, the bolt pattern may not be exactly the same.
I do not believe that you need to use the pump back plate, but I will ask some of the "stock water pump" crowd to help on that question. Some of the aftermarket pumps have their own back plate that should be used.
My preferred method is to make your plate mount to the water pump mounting surface and then make spacers to tie-in one bolt hole on the end of each head to take the load off the 5/16" bolts. That really firms things up and you can pull the heads easily without disturbing the mounting of the engine.

Keith
this car is a budget build, at one time it had a bbc in it..they cut the motor mount pad out so i cant use mounts, i have some material for the plate but i am limited to the tools i currently have to make a plate, i may try the normal way, it just looks a lot easier to mount it to the heads... i can buy a plate for 75-125, but why do that when i can make it for free, the heads are c9 heads , they will be on the car forever,


Mounting the m/plate to the heads is not a great idea! putting all the stress on the heads can create head gasket sealing concerns.(especially with the only 10 head bolts per cyl head of a Ford engine) this is even worse on aluminum heads!

Bob
D&D AUTOMOTIVE SPECIALTIES
Ford and Mustang Performance
610-759-2492
ddautosp@ptd.net
www.ddautospec.com



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Post  dfree383 on July 28th 2011, 1:09 pm

johndickjr wrote:
Wheelie58 wrote:Some folks do that....mounting motor plates to the heads, instead of the timing cover.
Down side is that you have extra work, if you just want to pull the heads for maintenance. Also, if you swap heads to a different type, the bolt pattern may not be exactly the same.
I do not believe that you need to use the pump back plate, but I will ask some of the "stock water pump" crowd to help on that question. Some of the aftermarket pumps have their own back plate that should be used.
My preferred method is to make your plate mount to the water pump mounting surface and then make spacers to tie-in one bolt hole on the end of each head to take the load off the 5/16" bolts. That really firms things up and you can pull the heads easily without disturbing the mounting of the engine.

Keith
this car is a budget build, at one time it had a bbc in it..they cut the motor mount pad out so i cant use mounts, i have some material for the plate but i am limited to the tools i currently have to make a plate, i may try the normal way, it just looks a lot easier to mount it to the heads... i can buy a plate for 75-125, but why do that when i can make it for free, the heads are c9 heads , they will be on the car forever,
Bad Move...... Don't mount it to the heads, mount it behind the water pump. for about the price your quoting for the plate you can buy one already cut and drilled.
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Post  johndickjr on July 28th 2011, 2:46 pm

460FOXTECH wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
Wheelie58 wrote:Some folks do that....mounting motor plates to the heads, instead of the timing cover.
Down side is that you have extra work, if you just want to pull the heads for maintenance. Also, if you swap heads to a different type, the bolt pattern may not be exactly the same.
I do not believe that you need to use the pump back plate, but I will ask some of the "stock water pump" crowd to help on that question. Some of the aftermarket pumps have their own back plate that should be used.
My preferred method is to make your plate mount to the water pump mounting surface and then make spacers to tie-in one bolt hole on the end of each head to take the load off the 5/16" bolts. That really firms things up and you can pull the heads easily without disturbing the mounting of the engine.

Keith
this car is a budget build, at one time it had a bbc in it..they cut the motor mount pad out so i cant use mounts, i have some material for the plate but i am limited to the tools i currently have to make a plate, i may try the normal way, it just looks a lot easier to mount it to the heads... i can buy a plate for 75-125, but why do that when i can make it for free, the heads are c9 heads , they will be on the car forever,


Mounting the m/plate to the heads is not a great idea! putting all the stress on the heads can create head gasket sealing concerns.(especially with the only 10 head bolts per cyl head of a Ford engine) this is even worse on aluminum heads!

Bob
D&D AUTOMOTIVE SPECIALTIES
Ford and Mustang Performance
610-759-2492
ddautosp@ptd.net
www.ddautospec.com


the head bots deal crossed my mind, we r using iron heads , and its only a mild 429, maybe a 12.00 car at the best, if i have to i will do it the normal way, just trying to save some money

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Post  JACKAZZFLATZ on July 28th 2011, 2:52 pm

I've still got the original pattern for mine (homemade - me cheapass). Mounds behind the water pump, dont need the backing plate. Can send ya a copy if ya want. Might have to be trimmed / added to to suit your build.
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Post  johndickjr on July 28th 2011, 2:58 pm

JACKAZZFLATZ wrote:I've still got the original pattern for mine (homemade - me cheapass). Mounds behind the water pump, dont need the backing plate. Can send ya a copy if ya want. Might have to be trimmed / added to to suit your build.
im working on a deal to get one..or the tools to build a normal one..guess all you do is trace out the pattern on the metal ..cut it and trim..etc..

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Post  johndickjr on July 28th 2011, 2:59 pm

JACKAZZFLATZ wrote:I've still got the original pattern for mine (homemade - me cheapass). Mounds behind the water pump, dont need the backing plate. Can send ya a copy if ya want. Might have to be trimmed / added to to suit your build.
pm sent

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Post  cool40 on July 28th 2011, 4:19 pm

i run one from s&w with the moroso pump,which is a lot like a stock pump,and it came with a hole in it to clear the pump without the plate.
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Post  Tommyj466 on July 28th 2011, 4:25 pm

I would imagine that if you are contemplating fabbing an engine plate, you could just as easily and cheaply fab up some new engine mounts. I'm just sayin'.

TJ
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Post  johndickjr on July 28th 2011, 4:29 pm

Tommyj466 wrote:I would imagine that if you are contemplating fabbing an engine plate, you could just as easily and cheaply fab up some new engine mounts. I'm just sayin'.

TJ
the car has no place for a mount..it has been cut out, car had a bbc in it at one time

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Post  rmcomprandy on July 28th 2011, 4:36 pm

johndickjr wrote:
JACKAZZFLATZ wrote:I've still got the original pattern for mine (homemade - me cheapass). Mounds behind the water pump, dont need the backing plate. Can send ya a copy if ya want. Might have to be trimmed / added to to suit your build.
im working on a deal to get one..or the tools to build a normal one..guess all you do is trace out the pattern on the metal ..cut it and trim..etc..

Have you ever just "cut it out and trim" with 1/4" thick plate...? Especially if that plate is steel; (5/16" aluminum plate is gonna be more expensive than what you'll want to spend)..
You're gonna fab it for FREE...? RiiiiGHT.

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Post  johndickjr on July 28th 2011, 4:55 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
JACKAZZFLATZ wrote:I've still got the original pattern for mine (homemade - me cheapass). Mounds behind the water pump, dont need the backing plate. Can send ya a copy if ya want. Might have to be trimmed / added to to suit your build.
im working on a deal to get one..or the tools to build a normal one..guess all you do is trace out the pattern on the metal ..cut it and trim..etc..

Have you ever just "cut it out and trim" with 1/4" thick plate...? Especially if that plate is steel; (5/16" aluminum plate is gonna be more expensive than what you'll want to spend)..
You're gonna fab it for FREE...? RiiiiGHT.
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Post  Wayne Pearce on July 28th 2011, 5:50 pm

The motor plate we built for my son's 89 GT 302 was mounted between the block and the timing cover, we had the timing cover milled a 1/4" to compensate for the plate. Worked beautifully, and we're going to try the same tactic on his big block (IF I can ever get him back to work on it). Mounting it this way the plate utilizes every bolt in the water pump, and timing cover, it was a lot of work but it worked very nice!

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

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Post  Tommyj466 on July 28th 2011, 6:05 pm

johndickjr wrote:
Tommyj466 wrote:I would imagine that if you are contemplating fabbing an engine plate, you could just as easily and cheaply fab up some new engine mounts. I'm just sayin'.

TJ
the car has no place for a mount..it has been cut out, car had a bbc in it at one time

That's why it's called Fabrication

How was the BBC installed? Plate?
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Post  dfree383 on July 28th 2011, 6:09 pm

johndickjr wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
JACKAZZFLATZ wrote:I've still got the original pattern for mine (homemade - me cheapass). Mounds behind the water pump, dont need the backing plate. Can send ya a copy if ya want. Might have to be trimmed / added to to suit your build.
im working on a deal to get one..or the tools to build a normal one..guess all you do is trace out the pattern on the metal ..cut it and trim..etc..

Have you ever just "cut it out and trim" with 1/4" thick plate...? Especially if that plate is steel; (5/16" aluminum plate is gonna be more expensive than what you'll want to spend)..
You're gonna fab it for FREE...? RiiiiGHT.
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I believe he's trying to help you out.......... The plates are avaliable Prefabricated (About the price your figuring on spending for material) at a very reasonable price, that will save you alot of hassle and agrivation.

Some time's in your quest to save money you get blinded to the fact that alot of times just buying the stuff is actually cheaper and easier......... Don;t forget to figure Grinding wheels, saw Blades and drill bits in your budget.....

But its you time and your money spend both as you wish.
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Post  johndickjr on July 28th 2011, 6:19 pm

dfree383 wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
JACKAZZFLATZ wrote:I've still got the original pattern for mine (homemade - me cheapass). Mounds behind the water pump, dont need the backing plate. Can send ya a copy if ya want. Might have to be trimmed / added to to suit your build.
im working on a deal to get one..or the tools to build a normal one..guess all you do is trace out the pattern on the metal ..cut it and trim..etc..

Have you ever just "cut it out and trim" with 1/4" thick plate...? Especially if that plate is steel; (5/16" aluminum plate is gonna be more expensive than what you'll want to spend)..
You're gonna fab it for FREE...? RiiiiGHT.
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I believe he's trying to help you out.......... The plates are avaliable Prefabricated (About the price your figuring on spending for material) at a very reasonable price, that will save you alot of hassle and agrivation.

Some time's in your quest to save money you get blinded to the fact that alot of times just buying the stuff is actually cheaper and easier......... Don;t forget to figure Grinding wheels, saw Blades and drill bits in your budget.....

But its you time and your money spend both as you wish.
i already have the material, tons of it actually, but a member pm me with one for sale that is a great deal so im getting that

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Post  johndickjr on July 28th 2011, 6:20 pm

Tommyj466 wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
Tommyj466 wrote:I would imagine that if you are contemplating fabbing an engine plate, you could just as easily and cheaply fab up some new engine mounts. I'm just sayin'.

TJ
the car has no place for a mount..it has been cut out, car had a bbc in it at one time

That's why it's called Fabrication

How was the BBC installed? Plate?
they cut the whole factory pad..mounting spot out, and used a front plate, i have a nice lead on one from a memebr here ..thanks for the info

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Post  rmcomprandy on July 28th 2011, 10:55 pm

Wayne Pearce wrote:The motor plate we built for my son's 89 GT 302 was mounted between the block and the timing cover, we had the timing cover milled a 1/4" to compensate for the plate. Worked beautifully, and we're going to try the same tactic on his big block (IF I can ever get him back to work on it). Mounting it this way the plate utilizes every bolt in the water pump, and timing cover, it was a lot of work but it worked very nice!

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

NO ... it doesn't utilize every water pump bolt when putting the motor plate between the front cover and block. pale Unless a simple two legged aftermarket water pump is used.
There are SIX water pump bolts which go all the way through the pump and cover then into the block. There are FIVE more which go through the water pump and only into the front cover.

There will be four bolts in the bottom half of the cover, (two on each side), which go into the block and NOT through the water pump.

All the bolts are 5/16 - 18 thread.

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Post  johndickjr on July 29th 2011, 6:04 am

are longer bolts needed

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Post  dfree383 on July 29th 2011, 7:08 am

I replace the factory bolts with the proper length Grade 8 stuff.
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Post  bbf-falcon on July 29th 2011, 7:25 am

dfree383 wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
johndickjr wrote:
JACKAZZFLATZ wrote:I've still got the original pattern for mine (homemade - me cheapass). Mounds behind the water pump, dont need the backing plate. Can send ya a copy if ya want. Might have to be trimmed / added to to suit your build.
im working on a deal to get one..or the tools to build a normal one..guess all you do is trace out the pattern on the metal ..cut it and trim..etc..

Have you ever just "cut it out and trim" with 1/4" thick plate...? Especially if that plate is steel; (5/16" aluminum plate is gonna be more expensive than what you'll want to spend)..
You're gonna fab it for FREE...? RiiiiGHT.
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I believe he's trying to help you out.......... The plates are avaliable Prefabricated (About the price your figuring on spending for material) at a very reasonable price, that will save you alot of hassle and agrivation.

Some time's in your quest to save money you get blinded to the fact that alot of times just buying the stuff is actually cheaper and easier......... Don;t forget to figure Grinding wheels, saw Blades and drill bits in your budget.....

But its you time and your money spend both as you wish.


I agree w/what Dave is saying. If I already have the material,I try to make it myself,but if you have to buy the material its actually cheaper to buy one already done .

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Post  Wayne Pearce on July 29th 2011, 8:22 am

Randy: Excuse my poorly chosen words, I should have said that the motor plate we fabricated utilized every bolt that passed through the water pump into the block, as well as all the timing cover bolts. Sorry bout dat !

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Post  rmcomprandy on July 29th 2011, 10:15 am

Wayne Pearce wrote:Randy: Excuse my poorly chosen words, I should have said that the motor plate we fabricated utilized every bolt that passed through the water pump into the block, as well as all the timing cover bolts. Sorry bout dat !

Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

That's fine .. I understood what you really meant but, I was simply clarifying it for all the other people who would read it.

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