460 bearings failure

Go down

460 bearings failure

Post  tomcat1 on May 11th 2012, 1:55 pm

Hello,
Please look at the pictures here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/106795670446573898032/BossEngine?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCL77xLb9pMeL7AE&feat=directlink
This is how this engine looking after 500 miles.
I think that barings failure was caused from trail off pieces of metal from edges where lifter bore meet oil passage. (look at detail pictures)
Waht do you think about it?
Do you think that rub away of this edges may solve this problem?
Or lifter bore sleeve?
I am using this cam:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-359351/
And this lifters:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-8934-16/
Lifters at top of the cam lobe are too high out of their bore I think. Pushrods are pitched almost 30 degrees, that should be a problem, what do you think about it? Rocker arm ratio is 1.75/1 and valve spring pressure open is 400 lb.
I am using high volume oil pump and no oil restrictors. It is street car, rpm limiter was set to 5000. Oil filter was tihis: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FRM-PH8A/ This filter has bypass valve.
Oil pressure at idle after assembly was 90 psi cold and 45 hot. But it was continously lowering and after 500 miles it was only 8 psi hot and 70 psi cold. So i decided to disassembly engine. Oil pressure sender is at the end of the oilng system.

Thank you very much for your suggestions and ideas how to fix problems with this engine.
Thanx, Tomas from Slovakia

tomcat1

Posts : 6
Join date : 2012-04-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  cooter on May 11th 2012, 2:24 pm

i would think metal from lifters or bores should be in the oil filter, my guess is a clearance problem in the mains. I think 90 psi is way to high at idle and could be an indicator of a bearing clearance problem

cooter

Posts : 220
Join date : 2010-07-01
Location : Edmonton Alberta Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  dirt_worker on May 11th 2012, 6:40 pm

Its my understanding that the bbf and hydraulic
cams don't mix well due to the unfavorable valvetrain geometry the combination provides.
I'm no expert but the odd geometry of the boss head might only exaggerate the problem.
Anyways....I doubt that has anything to do w your bearing issues.
On an engine of this caliber id say a micrometer should be used to check all revelant bearing clearances instead of the.I hardly trust the plastic gauge for even a stock rebuild.

Btw...
It looks like its gonna be a really fun ride once your bearing issue is resolved!
avatar
dirt_worker

Posts : 535
Join date : 2009-04-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  dfree383 on May 11th 2012, 6:43 pm

#1 your crank clearances are way to tight.

#2 you have way to much oil pressure

#3 have you assembled many BBF'S ? Or has the person who assembled it done many hp builds?


The hyd roller stuff works fine on a boss 429.
avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 13968
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  Larry T on May 11th 2012, 6:55 pm

did you by chance have any of your parts sand blasted or glass beaded?
avatar
Larry T

Posts : 1076
Join date : 2009-01-08
Location : leicester,NC

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  Frank Merkl on May 11th 2012, 7:40 pm

looks like it had a handfull of sand put through it ! and the front cam bearing is drove in to far.
Frank
avatar
Frank Merkl

Posts : 1398
Join date : 2008-12-17
Age : 62
Location : Brooks ,Alberta ,Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  cooter on May 11th 2012, 7:46 pm

3M pads on a die grinder works well on bearings also

cooter

Posts : 220
Join date : 2010-07-01
Location : Edmonton Alberta Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  56Tbird on May 11th 2012, 8:38 pm

Looks like it wasn't cleaned good ,and way too tight on bearing clearance.And toss the high volume pump!! 90lbs. of oil pressure is way too much,if it didn't ,it will suck the pan dry.
avatar
56Tbird
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 5255
Join date : 2008-12-02
Age : 59
Location : Hawesville,Ky.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  466cj on May 11th 2012, 9:07 pm

looking at your plastigage on that journal you have .002" which is tight for a performance engine, but within the Ford spec and not enough to kill the bearing if just normal street driving. With that said, plastigage can be tricky to get an accurate reading. It maybe uses as a feel good double check, but should not take the place of proper measurement technique.

From looking at the pictures there is a lot of debris that has damaged main, rod, and cam bearings, pistons, and oil pump. I'd think something was not cleaned properly. The main bearing look like you may have an alignment problem too. Check the crank for straightness and align hone the mains.

Hard to say without knowing the bearing clearances, may be they were too tight as others feel causing the wear and debris, or could have been debris in the engine from not being cleaned well enough. Also do you have an oil cooler or accumulator on this? If so we it used? Do you know the true history? An oil cooler from a blown up engine will be full of debris and really cannot be cleaned well enough to trust.

Steve

466cj

Posts : 391
Join date : 2011-05-01
Location : San Antonio, TX.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  bbf-falcon on May 12th 2012, 2:38 am

Engine definately had something goin thru the oiling system acting like sandpaper,BUT those bearings have been really hot and looks like been starving for oil imo.And I would venture to say that the lack of oil was the beginning of the problems. .002 clearance is not going to make a street engine bearings starve for oil and look the way they do unless you are floggin the dog shit out of it and sucking the pan dry constantly. IMO ,you have some oiling issues that have been overlooked.

bbf-falcon

Posts : 8992
Join date : 2008-12-03
Location : Jackson, Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  the Coug on May 12th 2012, 5:56 am

what oil and weight was it?
avatar
the Coug

Posts : 3055
Join date : 2008-12-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  466cj on May 12th 2012, 5:46 pm

bbf-falcon wrote:Engine definately had something goin thru the oiling system acting like sandpaper,BUT those bearings have been really hot and looks like been starving for oil imo.And I would venture to say that the lack of oil was the beginning of the problems. .002 clearance is not going to make a street engine bearings starve for oil and look the way they do unless you are floggin the dog shit out of it and sucking the pan dry constantly. IMO ,you have some oiling issues that have been overlooked.

Did you see the picture of the oil pump gears? Lots of grit went through them! I'm not so sure the bearings got all to hot, if they did I'd expect at least one would have spun and see some blue in the rods. Granted only one picture of a rod and cannot be sure it is a after picture. Bearings look to me as a lot of debris and some metal transfer, but not to the level of when a journal is catching a bearing b/c of lack of oil.

466cj

Posts : 391
Join date : 2011-05-01
Location : San Antonio, TX.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  Paul Kane on May 13th 2012, 1:36 pm

56Tbird wrote:......And toss the high volume pump!! ...,it will suck the pan dry.
Absolute fallacy. The amount of oil that may be sent though an engine is set mostly by the engine clearances, not by the size of the oil pump. Therefore if someone installs a higher volume oil pump into the same engine the HV pump will simply bypass more oil. So if an engine is ever accused of "pumping the pan dry" then it's more likely that the engine has serious oil drain back problems. Besides, 95% of the time that diagnosis is really a mis-diagnosis relative to why the engine is really losing oil pressure....it is usually windage, aeration, or other oil control problems in the pan, etc.

Case-in-point: my jet boat has an HV pump and I have repeatedly run it for 45-60 seconds at a time at 5000+ rpm across the lake and I don't empty my oil pan. I also know of multiple BBF engines running up and down the Colorado River for 10+ minutes at a time operating at 6000 rpm sustained and the HV pump does not empty the pan. Endurance race boats running 7000+ rpm for 5-10 minutes, 275*+ oil temp and they don't pump the pan dry and with those engines there isn't a standard volume internal oil pump on the planet that could handle keeping those engines alive no matter how hard it tried.

It's all about the right part for the right application....and providing the right information based on real-world first-hand experiences.

Paul
avatar
Paul Kane

Posts : 782
Join date : 2009-09-15
Location : San Francisco Bay Area

View user profile http://www.highflowdynamics.com

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  tomcat1 on May 14th 2012, 5:25 am

dfree383 wrote:
#1 your crank clearances are way to tight.
A lot of you guys said that, so i decided to use performance bearings with 0.001 in. extra oil clearance.

#3 have you assembled many BBF'S ? Or has the person who assembled it done many hp builds?
This is my first BBF, it is very rare engine in Europe, so i am open to yours advices...


466cj wrote:
From looking at the pictures there is a lot of debris that has damaged main, rod, and cam bearings, pistons, and oil pump. I'd think something was not cleaned properly. The main bearing look like you may have an alignment problem too. Check the crank for straightness and align hone the mains.
Yes a lot of derbits circulated through the engine, but I think that it is only secondary damage. After the filter was full, bypass valve in fiter was open and unfiltered oil flows through whole engine.
I have foud this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/106795670446573898032/BossEngine?authkey=Gv1sRgCL77xLb9pMeL7AE#5742309974833354946
And it look similar to this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/106795670446573898032/BossEngine?authkey=Gv1sRgCL77xLb9pMeL7AE#5736430222796576802
So you may be right and i need block align honed. And I also decided to buy new forged Scat crankshaft. Originaly in engine was cast iron RMM International crank.


Steve

the Coug wrote:what oil and weight was it?
I used Valvoline racing 10W60 oil. Oil pan volume is 9 liters.

tomcat1

Posts : 6
Join date : 2012-04-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  dfree383 on May 14th 2012, 5:41 am

You need to get the proper Clearances, about 3 thou +/- and it needs to be checked, do not assume +bearings will get it correct.

You shouldn't need a new Crankshaft. Have that one Ground if its that bad. that will also help you get the proper clearances as long as you have a competent shop to take it to.
avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 13968
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  dfree383 on May 14th 2012, 5:46 am

Paul Kane wrote:
56Tbird wrote:......And toss the high volume pump!! ...,it will suck the pan dry.
Absolute fallacy. The amount of oil that may be sent though an engine is set mostly by the engine clearances, not by the size of the oil pump. Therefore if someone installs a higher volume oil pump into the same engine the HV pump will simply bypass more oil. So if an engine is ever accused of "pumping the pan dry" then it's more likely that the engine has serious oil drain back problems. Besides, 95% of the time that diagnosis is really a mis-diagnosis relative to why the engine is really losing oil pressure....it is usually windage, aeration, or other oil control problems in the pan, etc.

Case-in-point: my jet boat has an HV pump and I have repeatedly run it for 45-60 seconds at a time at 5000+ rpm across the lake and I don't empty my oil pan. I also know of multiple BBF engines running up and down the Colorado River for 10+ minutes at a time operating at 6000 rpm sustained and the HV pump does not empty the pan. Endurance race boats running 7000+ rpm for 5-10 minutes, 275*+ oil temp and they don't pump the pan dry and with those engines there isn't a standard volume internal oil pump on the planet that could handle keeping those engines alive no matter how hard it tried.

It's all about the right part for the right application....and providing the right information based on real-world first-hand experiences.

Paul

Whats required to keep a motor together is the proper volumn..... typical HV pumps are way overkill.

It is can also bad to be circulating at a very high rate and aerating / foaming oil.
avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 13968
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  466cj on May 14th 2012, 3:08 pm

Tomcat1:

I'd say best advice can give you is to find a good machine shop, one that will pay attention to detail. The Scat crank certainly be a nice upgrade, but for street nothing wrong with having your existing crank checked out, polished and/or ground as needed.

Just be aware every part you buy should be checked from proper machining. One thing I forgot to mention is a crank with too rough a surface finish can damage the bearings.

.003" on the mains and .0025 on the rods is fine for clearance. I think if you had .002" on the mains and no other issues that you would NOT have had the failure you did.

Basically you want everything "Blueprinted".

Question: Of the debris in the engine will any of it stick to a magnet?

BTW a Jomar oil filter has no bypass valve and is a good filter option.

466cj

Posts : 391
Join date : 2011-05-01
Location : San Antonio, TX.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  tomcat1 on May 16th 2012, 2:27 pm

dfree383 wrote:You need to get the proper Clearances, about 3 thou +/- and it needs to be checked, do not assume +bearings will get it correct.

You shouldn't need a new Crankshaft. Have that one Ground if its that bad. that will also help you get the proper clearances as long as you have a competent shop to take it to.
My crankshaft is 0.040 undersized and i think it is also bent. So i want to upgrade to scat forged crank. If somebody have good refernced machine shop which balancing cranks, please give me contact to them. Best for me is shop which is also Scat dealer.

tomcat1

Posts : 6
Join date : 2012-04-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 460 bearings failure

Post  dfree383 on May 17th 2012, 7:27 am

tomcat1 wrote:
dfree383 wrote:You need to get the proper Clearances, about 3 thou +/- and it needs to be checked, do not assume +bearings will get it correct.

You shouldn't need a new Crankshaft. Have that one Ground if its that bad. that will also help you get the proper clearances as long as you have a competent shop to take it to.
My crankshaft is 0.040 undersized and i think it is also bent. So i want to upgrade to scat forged crank. If somebody have good refernced machine shop which balancing cranks, please give me contact to them. Best for me is shop which is also Scat dealer.

Try Adney Brown at Performance Crankshaft http://performancecrankshaft.com/ He's an awsome crank grinder and a very good person to deal with.

and a scat dealer to boot.
avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 13968
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum