advancing cam

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advancing cam

Post  BUZZ BUZZARD on November 19th 2012, 8:19 pm

Looking to squeeze a little more power out of the 557, anyone have oppinions about advancing the timming on the cam. MY build stock block, tfs streets heavy porting, 4.5 crank, flat tops, 1150 dom, victor intake etc. Cam is Lunati solid roller, .738 lift intake and exhaust, 282/292 @.50, 110 lobe separation, 104 centerline, ex closes 30 atdc ex opens 82 bbdc in opens 37 btdc in closes 65 abdc. The cam card also says 6 advanced, dose this mean that the cam is already cut with six degrees of advance in it? I did not degree this cam when I put it in ever time I went through the trouble of degreeing a cam I had to put it in straight up, so I did not go through the routine this time. I also have a set of 1.8 rockers to try, any input on that? Trying to get another tenth out to run the quick door slammer class. Current et, 5.82 118mph.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  rmcomprandy on November 19th 2012, 10:36 pm

BUZZ BUZZARD wrote:Looking to squeeze a little more power out of the 557, anyone have oppinions about advancing the timming on the cam. MY build stock block, tfs streets heavy porting, 4.5 crank, flat tops, 1150 dom, victor intake etc. Cam is Lunati solid roller, .738 lift intake and exhaust, 282/292 @.50, 110 lobe separation, 104 centerline, ex closes 30 atdc ex opens 82 bbdc in opens 37 btdc in closes 65 abdc. The cam card also says 6 advanced, dose this mean that the cam is already cut with six degrees of advance in it? I did not degree this cam when I put it in ever time I went through the trouble of degreeing a cam I had to put it in straight up, so I did not go through the routine this time. I also have a set of 1.8 rockers to try, any input on that? Trying to get another tenth out to run the quick door slammer class. Current et, 5.82 118mph.

If you didn't degree it then how do you know exactly where it is now...? The timing numbers you gave are probably ficticious without knowing where the cam actually is.

At that E.T, a tenth is more than "a little more power".

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Re: advancing cam

Post  LivermoreDave on November 19th 2012, 10:43 pm

Buzz you are correct. The camshaft has been ground 6* advanced, if you will. So if you have it straight up, I don't think I would advance it much more. Your quest for more power may not be rewarded moving the cam's timing around. Moving the cam's timing generally shifts the power band within the operating speed of the engine. Advanced cam timing generally shifts the power band to a lower engine speed, and visa versa. If your cam is way out in left field for your application it may help. Someone with more experience will reply as well and they may have a different approach for you.

Dave.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  Lem Evans on November 19th 2012, 10:45 pm

That engine with that cam and 110* LSA....I'd doubt it'd want 6* advance for best hp...but...depending on conv./clutch, gear , tire size etc. something else could work.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  cool40 on November 19th 2012, 11:21 pm

if you do move it,be SURE you have valve clearance. Very Happy
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Re: advancing cam

Post  BUZZ BUZZARD on November 20th 2012, 11:43 am

The numbers given came from the cam card supplied with the cam. The timming gear was installed with the zero degree keyway. I know that a tenth is alot at that et but I am not relying on a hp increase only. The slicks are gone, the sixtiy foot times varied from 1.35 to 1.27 last time out. Went to a higher launch pill and tire spin got much worse. Currently running c-6, 3.50 gear, 33x15 slicks, 5500 stall, car & driver 2750 lbs, shift at 6400. Anybody have thoughts about this cam good or bad?

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Re: advancing cam

Post  IDT-572 on November 20th 2012, 4:07 pm

BUZZ BUZZARD wrote:The numbers given came from the cam card supplied with the cam. The timming gear was installed with the zero degree keyway. I know that a tenth is alot at that et but I am not relying on a hp increase only. The slicks are gone, the sixtiy foot times varied from 1.35 to 1.27 last time out. Went to a higher launch pill and tire spin got much worse. Currently running c-6, 3.50 gear, 33x15 slicks, 5500 stall, car & driver 2750 lbs, shift at 6400. Anybody have thoughts about this cam good or bad?

There is more left in it, I ran 1.26 60 ft's and 5.60's with my 557 ported TFS Street headed deal. My cam was smaller than yours with more lift and mine ran fastest shifting at 7100.

Glide 4.10 gears and 28 x 10.5 slicks 3060 weight with driver.
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Re: advancing cam

Post  BUZZ BUZZARD on November 20th 2012, 8:05 pm

Thanks for the encouragement, I think the car ran quicker shifting at that low rpm because of the slicks being in bad shape. Sometimes you can get stuck trying to get results in one way when you can overlook stuff that you would normally try. One pass the shift light did not come on for my second gear shift and I hit the rev limiter at 7400. The pass was aborted because it started to spin. I fixed the shift light but never tryed to go up on the shift point. I was very surprized that the motor went that high that quickly. My next course of action will be a new set of Hoosier 33x16 slicks, richmond big pinion pro gears, turn the shift light up to 6800-7000 and see what happens.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  cool40 on November 20th 2012, 8:14 pm

Do you know where the cam is in at?
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Re: advancing cam

Post  BUZZ BUZZARD on November 21st 2012, 10:48 am

NOt a clue. I assembled the engine in a mad rush to make it to the track for a race. It was a new cam and I skipped, degreeing it to make it to the race. I will degree it over the winter to see if it may be off, and set it to the cam card specs. I installed it on the 0*keyway thinking it was a safe bet.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  k.pascoe on November 21st 2012, 12:46 pm

You want to pick up more than a tenth and MPH? Ditch that damn c6 transmission. With that engine at 2700 lbs. why on earth are you running a truck tranny? If you want to stick it out with a Ford get a nice c4. Cheaper, easier, faster; go with a power glide. Just my .02.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  BUZZ BUZZARD on November 21st 2012, 4:38 pm

No shit sherlock, why not just ditch the whole engine and build an 800 inch c headed motor with a lenco behind it. Gee I never thought of a c-4 or a powerglide. I have lots of good c-6 parts that can be very reliable in this bracket car. If the car was running in heads up competion the whole powertrain would be different. This is a bracket car that has to be able to go as many rounds as possible as cheaply as possible. That old truck tranmission has served my very well in the past. The case and 90% of the internals have been in my race cars sence 1996. This trans has too many passes to count sence it has been raced every year in three different race vehicles. Think a "nice c-4" would give that service behind everthing form a 4000 lb pu running 11's to a 4200lb galaxie running 10 teens on turbo, and this car? The glide might be nice but $3000 to convert for a tenth dosn't sound like a deal I want right now. The post was intended to get advice on cam timming not about my poor choice of transmissions. Just my two cents.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  k.pascoe on November 21st 2012, 5:15 pm

Well if you want to go to a 800 ci. and a Lenco that would pick you up a couple tenths also.
Sorry I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. I just dont understand why guys will build a nice drag engine in a light car, and then bolt it to something that soaks a 25% of the power out of it. I've ran a c6 with many different brakes. I've also run a T400 (it had 1 brake); in a 4000lbs Torino; picked up .5 et. over the c6. You're trying to run a quick series. (BTW- A powerglide set-up will not cost you $3000.)

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Re: advancing cam

Post  IDT-572 on November 21st 2012, 5:19 pm

The power glide it's self is not a wallet killer. stock case and a 50 buck 5 clutch drum and hardened input plus manual vb and your on your way. Now the $300 JW Bell kit and converter will set you back some..............
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Re: advancing cam

Post  BUZZ BUZZARD on November 21st 2012, 6:57 pm

No feathers ruffled here none left to ruffle! Sit down and start adding up everthing in the powerglide build and conversion, drive shaft, slip yoke, shifter, convertor, bellhousing, flexplate, trans-shield, input shaft, servo, transbrake, pan, planetary set, good rebuild kit, I added it up too many times $3000 +-. I have two stock glides in my shop now, and have thought about building one for a year or more now.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  bbf-falcon on November 21st 2012, 7:00 pm

k.pascoe wrote:You want to pick up more than a tenth and MPH? Ditch that damn c6 transmission. With that engine at 2700 lbs. why on earth are you running a truck tranny? If you want to stick it out with a Ford get a nice c4. Cheaper, easier, faster; go with a power glide. Just my .02.

I have to disagree w/you about ditching the C6 for the C4. The C4 will hold up for a few passes but there not long for this world w/high HP BBF. The C6 is a good tranny ad he might be losing a little HP ,but NOT 25%. If the C6 setup is working good then I would stay w/it until it's time for a glide. The powerglide is cheap to build ,and you don't have to go Hog Wild w/exotic parts either. Just good reliable internals and you are good to go. I have a C4 going behind a mild 514 build,but i'm not that confident it will hold up,and it will be in a #3100 car.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  BUZZ BUZZARD on November 21st 2012, 7:28 pm

Thanks bb-falcon I think the old c6 is not as bad as most believe. The c6 man frank has one bad ass ride with that old truck trans. It may not be the easiest to get sorted out but it can and does work for some. I have to disagree with the 25% also. One of my close friends had a 1971 mach 1 514, c6 it would run 10.03 1/4. He wanted to run 9's very badley. He took out the c6 and put in a glide with aftermarket planets, same size stall and gearing, car ran 10.40's. Long story short he had to change gearing several times change convertor stall, shift points etc. When that was exhausted the car ran 9.89, and had to be shifted about 1000 rpm higher. He was not happy with the exchange. After breaking two $1500 sets of planetaries he put the c6 back in and with some tuning it ran 9.99. This may not be typical but I was there through the whole process and would hate to have the same thing happen to my wallet.

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Re: advancing cam

Post  cool40 on November 21st 2012, 7:36 pm

I know everybody else picked up with a c4 or a glide but i did'nt. First i did the c4 deal and used the same converter i had in the c6,did'nt see anything in et or mph.i had good parts in the c4 and it lived fine and went 5.60's i think it was.next i did the glide.i went all out with a reid case and all the good shit.i got a new converter for it too and left the place $4500 less.it ran about the same et and mph as the c4.i tried converter changes and it slowed down.i can say the glide has worked great and most of all it calmed the car down so it could go faster with more power.as for the cam advancing i can tell you another story Laughing I changed my cam before the ford thunder race this year looking for a little help.my old comp was in @ 112. The new bullet cam was also 112,same as the comp,but was to be installed @108. I did'nt see why cuz the comp was on 112 and a little rpm was what i was after.it slowed down most of a tenth with the new cam Sad I downed it an advanced it 4'and got the tenth back plus a little.check your cam and see where its at then check the valve clearance to see what you can do.a tenth can be had IMO!
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Re: advancing cam

Post  IDT-572 on November 21st 2012, 7:38 pm

Well carry on Buzz.
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Re: advancing cam

Post  BUZZ BUZZARD on November 22nd 2012, 11:22 am

Its nice to know that what I saw with the mach 1 first hand was not just a fluke. I know of two other ford racers that fell prey to the 'just put a glide in it' routine with the same results. One eventually got faster but with other engine mods that made more power, both were mid-nine second cars. I didn't post all the perticular because I was not there through their process, one was an early fox mustang that eventually ran 9.60's with a small block and glide, he put a couple of hundred passes before it began to be totaly unreliable and had to upgrade the guts. The maverick ran 9.30's with small block and c4, he put the glide in it but never saw 30's again he sold the stuff to the above mustang racer put the c-4 back in and like magic it ran 9.30's again.

I am not trying to downgrade anyone who runs a powerglide, I just don't think that it is the magic pill to fix everything wrong with a car. If I would have put a glide in it early this year I would be singing about how it fixed my traction issues but I would have never tryed putting in a crazy tall rear gear behind the c6 and found out that it also calmed the car down with only the cost of a ring and pinnion. The gear swap spread out my shift points to where it can be very consistent. I have won more rounds in elliminations these last three races since the gear swap then I have in the last three years, so I know why the glide is so popular.

I should not have called the class that I am trying to get in quick door slammer, it is called top door slammer to get into the field you have to be able to dial in 5.79 or faster. The class is to give door cars a chance to run against similar cars but no dragsters.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

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Re: advancing cam

Post  whitefield on November 22nd 2012, 11:46 am

BUZZ BUZZARD wrote:Its nice to know that what I saw with the mach 1 first hand was not just a fluke. I know of two other ford racers that fell prey to the 'just put a glide in it' routine with the same results. One eventually got faster but with other engine mods that made more power, both were mid-nine second cars. I didn't post all the perticular because I was not there through their process, one was an early fox mustang that eventually ran 9.60's with a small block and glide, he put a couple of hundred passes before it began to be totaly unreliable and had to upgrade the guts. The maverick ran 9.30's with small block and c4, he put the glide in it but never saw 30's again he sold the stuff to the above mustang racer put the c-4 back in and like magic it ran 9.30's again.

I am not trying to downgrade anyone who runs a powerglide, I just don't think that it is the magic pill to fix everything wrong with a car. If I would have put a glide in it early this year I would be singing about how it fixed my traction issues but I would have never tryed putting in a crazy tall rear gear behind the c6 and found out that it also calmed the car down with only the cost of a ring and pinnion. The gear swap spread out my shift points to where it can be very consistent. I have won more rounds in elliminations these last three races since the gear swap then I have in the last three years, so I know why the glide is so popular.

I should not have called the class that I am trying to get in quick door slammer, it is called top door slammer to get into the field you have to be able to dial in 5.79 or faster. The class is to give door cars a chance to run against similar cars but no dragsters.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
Well stated!
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Re: advancing cam

Post  bbf-falcon on November 22nd 2012, 12:13 pm

BUZZ BUZZARD wrote:Its nice to know that what I saw with the mach 1 first hand was not just a fluke. I know of two other ford racers that fell prey to the 'just put a glide in it' routine with the same results. One eventually got faster but with other engine mods that made more power, both were mid-nine second cars. I didn't post all the perticular because I was not there through their process, one was an early fox mustang that eventually ran 9.60's with a small block and glide, he put a couple of hundred passes before it began to be totaly unreliable and had to upgrade the guts. The maverick ran 9.30's with small block and c4, he put the glide in it but never saw 30's again he sold the stuff to the above mustang racer put the c-4 back in and like magic it ran 9.30's again.


I should not have called the class that I am trying to get in quick door slammer, it is called top door slammer to get into the field you have to be able to dial in 5.79 or faster. The class is to give door cars a chance to run against similar cars but no dragsters.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

X3,All tranny's have a place and combo that they work best in. I have a friend that has a 69 mustang w/500hp Cleveland. He went from a c6 to c4 w/o et gain and added tranny problems. Then switched to glide and 2 or 3 diff converters and lost et. He's now running the C6 again and having fun again.A C6 would not work the best in my car imo. I like my glide.
Don't eat too much today guy's Very Happy

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