Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

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Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  soupbean on December 19th 2012, 9:15 pm

I've heard debate between vacuum pumps, header evac, and neither vs. gain/cost. What's y'alls thoughts?
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  c.evans on December 19th 2012, 9:23 pm

Heck yes they are worth the money. Just remember they they are not a "stand alone" magical pill. The low tension ring package with gas ports is the "enabler".

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  soupbean on December 19th 2012, 9:34 pm

c.evans wrote:Heck yes they are worth the money. Just remember they they are not a "stand alone" magical pill. The low tension ring package with gas ports is the "enabler".

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  soupbean on December 19th 2012, 9:42 pm

Also let me say this... Let's say for shits and giggles the engine makes 15 more horsepower on the dyno with a loaned vacuum pump pulling 10"s. If I didn't want to spend the money for the 15 horsepower, are there other negatives to not running vacuum? How much vacuum would a header evac produce? Enough to make the same power?
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  richter69 on December 19th 2012, 10:00 pm

I wouldnt screw w a header evac imo
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  soupbean on December 19th 2012, 10:15 pm

richter69 wrote:I wouldnt screw w a header evac imo

Ive heard that before. I ran a header evac with the 514 but ran nothing with the 557. Just vented. But I've also heard a header evac is better than just venting. I've heard vac pumps can cause bad things to happen (at too much vac) etc. I'd like to know the pros and cons of all.
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  Lem Evans on December 19th 2012, 10:37 pm

The pump is worth it if one has the budget......otherwise it does not matter. Like Charlie said, there is more to get if the ring package is designed for use with a vacuum pump.

10-12 hg with a pump will net more power and have enough oil pressure with your ring package or the super low tension ring package.

You have a .043" top ring with gas ports but not the 'back cut' and 3mm package.

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  bbf-falcon on December 20th 2012, 12:36 am

Vacumn pumps help w/oil leaks also. Smile Keeps the gaskets in place.

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  Wheelie58 on December 20th 2012, 10:58 am

If you decide to invest in a pump, make sure the pump is rebuildable and parts are readily available.
The pump should be serviced annually if you run a lot.
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  rmcomprandy on December 20th 2012, 11:48 am

soupbean wrote:I've heard debate between vacuum pumps, header evac, and neither vs. gain/cost. What's y'alls thoughts?

Is driving a Lincoln "worth the money" over driving a Taurus...?

It all depends upon the individual and what you are trying to accomplish as to whether is "worth the money" or not.

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  dfree383 on December 20th 2012, 11:52 am

Hell yea when your looking for every last hp in a max effort deal it's worth it, might have a hard time justifying it on a 500 hp bracket build though.............
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  5pointslow on December 20th 2012, 12:05 pm

From what i have read ,

Oil leaks are limited

and will free up some power

To me im sure hp gains are different from each combo , but im gonna use one on my iron head build to try to get the most out of the combo
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  soupbean on December 20th 2012, 12:20 pm

[quote="rmcomprandy"]
soupbean wrote:I've heard debate between vacuum pumps, header evac, and neither vs. gain/cost. What's y'alls thoughts?

Is driving a Lincoln "worth the money" over driving a Taurus...?


This is not remotely close to a Lincoln vs Taurus comparison
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  kim on December 20th 2012, 12:34 pm

The answered has already been given, but will repeat for my own post count.

Header Evac, Vacuum pump, or open breather.

It depends on the intent and build of the engine. If building a street strip warrior, the things that maximize HP with the application of either evac system are not practical. You can’t use low tension rings, gas ports on an engine intent on running several thousand street miles a year, and intended to be together for years on end.

Now header Evac has a place, not offering the same gains or performance as something like a dry sump system or a dedicated evac pump, it will vent crankcase pressure and reduce some of the resistance of moving the air beneath the pistons. Remember your displacement above the piston to create power is also the displacement below the piston that has to be pumped around that crankcase.

The Evac pump will add significant power if used in conjunction with low tension rings, gas ported pistons, etc. If the engine is built as a dedicated drag race, high RPM high HP big displacement monster, an EVAC pump or dry sump oil system will benefit the NA and many forced induction engines.

Top fuel… the fact they put rings on the pistons at all is kind of a joke… more to keep the piston from slapping around in the block too violently versus any hope of additional cylinder seal.

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  5pointslow on December 20th 2012, 12:37 pm

http://www.429-460.com/t13910-moroso-tests-about-power-with-and-without-vacum-pumpseavc-kit-bigger-oil-pan-oil-pressure-ect-very-interesting-check-it-out



check this post out i, did this a while back the test is on a bbc but will give you an idea , i thought it was interesting
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  soupbean on December 20th 2012, 4:28 pm

Good read indeed!
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  rmcomprandy on December 20th 2012, 7:40 pm

[quote="soupbean"]
rmcomprandy wrote:

Is driving a Lincoln "worth the money" over driving a Taurus...?


This is not remotely close to a Lincoln vs Taurus comparison

You miss the entire point; "worth it" is ENTIRELY subjective and different for almost everybody.
Do you also have a difficult time seeing a forest because the trees are in the way...? Smile

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  soupbean on December 20th 2012, 8:45 pm

[quote="rmcomprandy"]
soupbean wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:

Is driving a Lincoln "worth the money" over driving a Taurus...?


This is not remotely close to a Lincoln vs Taurus comparison

You miss the entire point; "worth it" is ENTIRELY subjective and different for almost everybody.
Do you also have a difficult time seeing a forest because the trees are in the way...? Smile

Yeah... I'm just a country dummy Wink .
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  J.Toney on September 9th 2015, 1:35 pm

Bump for inut on a build I'm gettting pieces for
-528" NA,
-e85
-street/beat use
-single kit, ~300 if I learn a good tune
-non gas ported pistons
-1/16-1/16-3/16 package

Is having gas ports added useless on this ring? Or even legit to do cost wise on a finished piston? I would think a pump is still a nice add-on, but don't hurt to ask insight.
I'm not oppsed to using one, would try on the dyno also.
Thanks!
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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  Lem Evans on September 9th 2015, 2:32 pm

The 1/16" top ring does not need a gas port.

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  gt350hr on September 10th 2015, 12:31 pm

Lem is right gas ports are not "needed" on a 1/16th ring package. Gas ports DO provide a power increase whenever they are used. That is because they improve ring seal , down against the piston and out against the cylinder wall. The reason gains are more with an 043 top ring is that ring has less drag on the cylinder wall than a 1/16th ring , "freeing up" parasitic losses. The gas port applies cylinder pressure to the top and back of the ring on the compression stroke , loading the lower tension ring only when it needs to be.

Vacuum pumps have a similar function in that crankcase vacuum also helps ring seal. It also "pulls" oil out of the crank/rods and "can" result in a lower oil pressure reading on the gauge. I found this by accident . I was breaking in a friend's brand new Comp eliminator engine and the builder said to run it a few minutes before hooking up the belt driven vacuum pump. The engine was running with 50psi oil pressure as i hooked the hose from the pump to the valve cover, the pressure immediately dropped 10psi. The owner ( sitting in the driver's seat and watching gauges) paniced and started pointing at the gauge and loss of pressure. I pulled the hose off just to see if that made the difference and sure enough the pressure went up to 50 again. I did this three more times out of sheer disbelief. After that I didn't worry.
TOO much vacuum ( IMHO over 14-15"s) is of little help and "can" cause wrist pin issues as it " drys up pin oiling. Adjustable valves are made to limit vacuum.

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  Lem Evans on September 10th 2015, 12:52 pm

Thicker wall wrist pins resolve most of the pin bore issues.

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  gt350hr on September 11th 2015, 10:57 am

"DLC" coating the pins eliminates pin galling altogether. Vacuum beyond 18"s doesn't make a difference (IMPE). Thick wall pins reduce flex which is there regardless of vacuum or not. Pin flex is a major contributor to piston failure. Thin wall "tool steel" or whatever, are still thin wall , and they flex a LOT. Cracks on the underside of the piston are MOST often the result of pin flex. I have many years of experience in this area.

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  Lem Evans on September 11th 2015, 12:00 pm

George Bryce's opinion on pins and vacuum...



What starves a pin? I have never starved a pin.
I have burned pins many times.
I burn them from loss of clearance. From deflection, bending, piston flex.
A pin is supposed to be round...the hole in the piston is supposed to be round.
But none of them are round if you rev them or load them enough.
It is my opinion that the high RPM power the added vacuum gives us, allows us to exceed the roundness of parts.
YES! Before we had vacuum we did run .100 wall pins. YES! we only revved to 8800 RPM.
The ring seal was so bad at 8800 that it was pointless to turn it more. The power fell off like a rock falling.
Now we turn it 10000, use .200 wall pins and the power does not fall off any more.
25" + correct rings + correct pistons = big power , past peak.
Vacuum allows us to rev higher than ever...stiffer parts are required....even if you have no vacuum.
If we burned pins, we would put stiffer ones in. If the pin bores burn we add mass to the piston.
The clearances must maintain.....again these are my opinions
   
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When we run wet, we work hard to get 25 inches.
When we race dry, we work hard to get 25 inches.
When we use 10 psi, we work hard to get 25 inches.
When we race with 80 psi, we work hard to get 25 inches.
All of the things that some think went wrong because of vacuum excess, were really things that were going to go wrong before vacuum excess.
We, as engine builder/designers, never were able to run the rpm, past peak power rpm, before the vacuum technology has helped us gain so much power beyond normal ranges.
Like Mens said...put stiffer parts in. Thin light parts bend. When they bend, clearance goes to zero in places.
The trouble comes from more rpm, not more vacuum...of course this is just my opinion.  
 
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We build the most powerful street Harleys in the world.
Check us out at www.starracing.com

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Re: Are vacuum pumps worth the money?

Post  Curt on September 11th 2015, 12:07 pm

George is a Cool Dude! Cool Smart to boot. pirat
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