Can this be welded and machined?

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Can this be welded and machined?

Post  zachduenow on February 23rd 2013, 6:36 pm

my machinist says that it's tough to weld and machine this (see pics) damage.

but my friend (ol' Ford gear head) says if you oven heat the head (machinist oven, not my wife's oven), open the oven and weld while head is still hot, then close the oven and shut it off and slowly let it cool overnight, then machine when the head is cool - then it should be ok.

I don't know...any expert opinions?

http://i75.servimg.com/u/f75/18/13/77/06/photo_11.jpg

thanks

zach


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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  466cj on February 23rd 2013, 8:11 pm

Yes it can be repaired, but likely be cheaper to find a replacement head. Stock D0VE-A heads are not that expensive or hard to find. All the C8VE, C9VE, and D0VE heads are basically the same.

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  zachduenow on February 23rd 2013, 8:21 pm

many thanks 466cj

I'm struggling to find d0ve-A's...easier to find d0ve-B's or C's. So I understand that they're identical, but I'll have to plug the thermofactor hole on a B or a C as my car doesn't use it...right?

also three quick questions:

1) is it true that there is no difference between driver's side and passenger side? totally interchangeable?
2) is it ok to keep one of my old heads (d0ve-A) on the car, and replace the other one with a d0ve-B or C? I can't imagine why it would matter, but just checking.
3) as long as I have them off and at the shop, would you recommend boring out the exhaust and/or intake? I'm not a power hungry guy, but I hear doing this is actually healthy for the engine's operation (more flow through, less resistance).

Thanks!

zach

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  bbf-falcon on February 23rd 2013, 8:47 pm

Switching the heads from side to side makes no difference. Like he said ,the c8,9 or Dove c will work fine. I don't know what you are wanting for performance,but helping the exhaust will help lots,even if thats all you do.

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  69F100 on February 24th 2013, 12:39 am

zachduenow wrote:my machinist says that it's tough to weld and machine this (see pics) damage.

but my friend (ol' Ford gear head) says if you oven heat the head (machinist oven, not my wife's oven), open the oven and weld while head is still hot, then close the oven and shut it off and slowly let it cool overnight, then machine when the head is cool - then it should be ok.

I don't know...any expert opinions?

http://i75.servimg.com/u/f75/18/13/77/06/photo_11.jpg

thanks

zach


Where are you located at I have 2 dove-a heads if you are close enough cheap untouched
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  Frank Merkl on February 24th 2013, 12:58 am

the only time I've seen a head burnt like that was on a blown 440 river boat racer
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  dfree383 on February 24th 2013, 1:38 am

If the head has had a whole bunch of porting and custom work to it it probably worth repairing.

If its just a stock heads, like has already been said, it probably cheaper to just replace it. Dove heads are not rare in most areas of the USA.
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UH OH...Trouble!

Post  zachduenow on February 24th 2013, 11:08 am

thanks to one and all for the helpful responses...but with suspicion, I checked my block this morning, and sure enough, I found an identical burn mark and crack.

uh oh

this, I assume, raises a whole load of questions.

most importantly: do I need to yank the rest of the engine? do I just need to replace the engine? can I just ignore this and fix it with a bubba fix (doubtful but hopeful)?

see pic of my block linked below:

https://redcdn.net/ihimg/photo/my-images/228/photolsx.jpg/

also, I'm in chicago area 69F100...I'd love to buy your heads, but sadly based on the above, I might need a whole lot more.

thanks

zach

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  Nevs on February 24th 2013, 11:13 am

zachduenow wrote:thanks to one and all for the helpful responses...but with suspicion, I checked my block this morning, and sure enough, I found an identical burn mark and crack.

uh oh

this, I assume, raises a whole load of questions.

most importantly: do I need to yank the rest of the engine? do I just need to replace the engine? can I just ignore this and fix it with a bubba fix (doubtful but hopeful)?

see pic of my block linked below:

https://redcdn.net/ihimg/photo/my-images/228/photolsx.jpg/

also, I'm in chicago area 69F100...I'd love to buy your heads, but sadly based on the above, I might need a whole lot more.

thanks

zach

Based on what I'm seeing in your photo, you've got a block issue as well. The engine will need to come out and you are going to need a block... Sad
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  dfree383 on February 24th 2013, 12:38 pm

What Nevs said, looks like you need a replacment long block.
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  DFI429 on February 24th 2013, 12:45 pm

Wow.. What was the application that this resulted from?? Question
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  dfree383 on February 24th 2013, 12:49 pm

DFI429 wrote:Wow.. What was the application that this resulted from?? Question

I've seen it over the years on some stock motors with blown head gaskets that people ignore and keep on running.
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  zachduenow on February 24th 2013, 12:50 pm

yup...that's what it's looking like.

Sadly I'm new to engine work...and I was able to feel my way through replacing heads, but this now seems like it surpasses my abilities.

Do you guys recommend a good place/website to shop for a lower-priced 429 rebuild. I don't need performance, this is just a fun family car. So I just want an engine that won't leave us stranded at the carnival. Very Happy

thanks

zach

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  466cj on February 24th 2013, 1:55 pm

No reason to restrict yourself to a 429, any non-efi 460 will work too. If you get a 460 made for model 1979 or newer just make sure to use the external balance flexplate and "hatchet". For something to just drive around a later engine may be better anyway since what you have has too much compression for pump gas and not designed for unleaded gas.

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  racnrick on February 24th 2013, 4:46 pm

When you replaced heads what brand of head gaskets did you use? I had this same thing happen years ago with a sbc, always used Felpro gaskets before, pulled heads in the middle of the week and did not have any Felpro's handy, but had a set of Victor's. Put them on and a few weeks later they blew out and melted block and heads. Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  zachduenow on February 24th 2013, 5:54 pm

the gaskets were original, this was the first time I had ever pulled heads off

I'm pretty much thinking that my heads and block are junk...I could have machinist weld and machine, but why? it'll cost the same to buy a block and heads...right?

So, my current plan is to perhaps pick up this guys block and heads, pull out my engine's guts, give it all to machinists at NAPA, and have it brought back to life.

The only question I have is that the engine linked below is from a Ford 1970 (just like my 1970 merc), but it's a SCJ.

will the guts still fit (lifters, cam, springs, push rods, rockers, bearings, pumps, timing chain, etc)?

http://www.racingjunk.com/Engines-Components/2928506/ford-429-scj-.html

thanks all

zach

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  69F100 on February 24th 2013, 6:49 pm

need to call him and find out what the block is if it a 70 model it should be DOVE-A BLOCK and find out what casting numbers are on the heads.post back with what you find out it will help to tell if it worth it or not
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  zachduenow on February 24th 2013, 7:01 pm

many thanks again...he will send me pics soon to confirm

but for now he says the heads read "d0oe-r"

which I think is indeed the SCJ

however, recently I found some things on the internet that says the 'guts' of my engine (1970 merc marquis 429) won't fit a 1970 429 SCJ because the SCJ's had different pistons, crank, cam, etc.

thoughts on that?

zach

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  69F100 on February 24th 2013, 7:18 pm

[quote="zachduenow"]many thanks again...he will send me pics soon to confirm

but for now he says the heads read "d0oe-r"

which I think is indeed the SCJ

however, recently I found some things on the internet that says the 'guts' of my engine (1970 merc marquis 429) won't fit a 1970 429 SCJ because the SCJ's had different pistons, crank, cam, etc.

thoughts on that?

zach[/quote


but for now he says the heads read "d0oe-r"

which I think is indeed the SCJ

if they are iron heads they will be CJ and yes your rotating assy will work them the SCJ would be aluminum and do have a different valve lay so your piston wouldn't work unless you have them notched

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  bbf-falcon on February 24th 2013, 8:33 pm


if they are iron heads they will be CJ and yes your rotating assy will work them the SCJ would be aluminum and do have a different valve lay so your piston wouldn't work unless you have them notched

The dooe-r are the old IRON SCJ heads and will work w/your pistons. The NEW Aluminum SCJ's are a different valve layout,but that won't concern you. That engine will fit right in your vehicle but,if it's just a family car it would be a big waste imo. Smile

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  the Coug on February 24th 2013, 9:09 pm

Zach if you are going to have to build another engine and don't want to bust the bank build a 460, you can surely find one close and replace a few parts and be good. for the money you are going to spend to fix the block and heads you can replace them for less if not the same money....
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  zachduenow on February 24th 2013, 10:47 pm

Sincere thanks to all for help

This is a fun car for my 4 and 5 year old...and my wife and I...and I'm new at rehabbing...so your support is meaningful

Looks like this is the plan for now:

1-accept that my heads and block are junk

2-yank my block, buy this block:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/460-Ford-Engine-Cylinder-Block-D9TE-AB-Standard-Bores-/200899565394?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item2ec68c1752&vxp=mtr

3-remove parts from my 429 block that can be used with this 460 (distrib, pumps, alt, bearings, etc)

4-purchase new pistons, crank, and likely a melling cam kit, and whatever else I need to suit the change to 460 (oil pan, etc)

5-buy some new-old dove heads

6-give my napa machinist the block, the heads, the newly purchased parts, and all the salvageable old parts and let him do his thing (hot tank, bore, bead blast, etc)

7-summon some luck, drop the engine back in

8-find a nice intake and carb, cross my fingers that I can figure out timing/distributor, turn the key

Did I miss anything? Lol

Thank all you guys sincerely

Zach

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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  Nevs on February 24th 2013, 10:56 pm

zachduenow wrote:Sincere thanks to all for help

This is a fun car for my 4 and 5 year old...and my wife and I...and I'm new at rehabbing...so your support is meaningful

Looks like this is the plan for now:

1-accept that my heads and block are junk

2-yank my block, buy this block:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/460-Ford-Engine-Cylinder-Block-D9TE-AB-Standard-Bores-/200899565394?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item2ec68c1752&vxp=mtr

3-remove parts from my 429 block that can be used with this 460 (distrib, pumps, alt, bearings, etc)

4-purchase new pistons, crank, and likely a melling cam kit, and whatever else I need to suit the change to 460 (oil pan, etc)

5-buy some new-old dove heads

6-give my napa machinist the block, the heads, the newly purchased parts, and all the salvageable old parts and let him do his thing (hot tank, bore, bead blast, etc)

7-summon some luck, drop the engine back in

8-find a nice intake and carb, cross my fingers that I can figure out timing/distributor, turn the key

Did I miss anything? Lol

Thank all you guys sincerely

Zach

You're certainly welcome to spend your money as you see fit, but I've got a C9 block in my add in the Stuff for Sale section, here's the link: http://www.429-460.com/t16213-parts-for-sale
I'm guessing you could save a little, mines already been tanked...shipping shouldn't be too bad, I recently shipped a A460 block to PA for $120... Idea Not trying to hijack your thread, just trying to save you a few bucks. For that matter, there must be a wrecking yard somewhere near you that has a complete engine for reasonable money. I'd do some looking around before I pulled the trigger on the ebay deal if it was me...
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  dfree383 on February 24th 2013, 11:00 pm

Got to watch th D9 blocks the early internal cranks will not fit in them. Look for a regular D1 block they are cheap and plentiful.
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Re: Can this be welded and machined?

Post  466cj on February 25th 2013, 12:14 am

I think you first need to decide how much you want to spend on this project. So far IMHO I see you have a lot of bad ideas going on. $350 for a block that needs everything??? Do yourself a favor and find a complete engine to start off with. Look for a 460 with D3VE or D6TE heads. May even want to find a rusted out old car or truck with a good running 460. Many times can be a better deal all the way around.

If you find a good running engine you have a choice to either swap it in or get it rebuilt. Napa? am sure are some that are ok, but really find a real machine shop. For a good basic rebuild depending on what you have done figure $1,500 - $3,000 or more. It is very easy to run the number up.

If this is just to be a fun driver I'd keep it simple. Gasket set, hone and new rings (if bore is in spec. if not figure pistons and an overbore), Polish crank if in spec (have ground if not) and bearing set, rods checked and reconditioned as needed, basic head rebuild, new timing chain/updated cam/lifters. If you want to do anything more get the block decked/heads cut and try to get the CR up to 9:1.

BTW D0OE-R heads were used on BOTH CJ and SCJ 429's in 70/71. They have the standard valve angles just like your engine, but the valve heads are larger in diameter and require a larger diameter valve relief in the piston. Use then with your existing piston and they will hit. They also not be a good choice for a stock heavy car like yours.

Steve

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