new morel lifters no oil to top?

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  fatal addiction on April 3rd 2013, 9:35 am

We had the same problem with our new build.
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Paul Kane on April 3rd 2013, 11:47 am

Lem Evans wrote:
Paul Kane wrote:
nitro717 wrote:I put new morel lifter in to replace the old comps and now have no oil up top. Using a drill to prime it havent started it yet, did notive to oil hole are 90degrees off from the comps. Get about 40 lbs of pressure with the drill.
Morel intentionally manufactures their lifters with a lifter body diameter that is on the high side (those which are sold under the Morel brand name). They do this so that the performance engine builder can size his lifter bore clearances exactly where he wants them, just like sizing the pin end of a con rod, for example. It's intended as high-end application stuff. If you don't set the lifter bore clearance, you may not get adequate top end oiling.

New blocks will need to have the lifter bores sized, and used blocks often need to be sized...or you can lightly notch the lifters instead of honing the lifter bores. (Another nice thing is if a used block's lifter bores are worn a thou or so, the Morels can "compensate" for that in some builds.) I think it's great that we have a lifter body with alkl of this in mind, and from a high quality manufacturer.

And Morel makes some very high quality lifters. People who use them and companies that offer them under their own brand name include: Force, Roush/Yates, Hendrick's, RCR...Isky, Crower, Merc, Lunati, and more.

Paul

Paul, the difference between Ford's high to low spec. for lifter dia. is but .0005". I doubt that much of the issue here is high vs. low.....above the high side would be another issue.

Comp's 836-16 lifter is ~ at the low side. In 1986 I was having an issue with pushrod erosion....I put a lot more oil to the upper gallery [I had a Boss 9 block]....no relief. I had to use the hillbilly grind or file thing to resolve it. My contact at Comp was made aware of the issue and the set of lifters we got the next year had the feed hole rotated in the lifter 90* closer to the gallery......issue resolved. They FIXED it.

Fastforward: 7-8 years ago to Doug Rahn's A460 engine. Doug supplied a nice set of Crower Hippo lifters...guess what...little to no oil to the rockers...I was and still am pissed Shocked More hillbilly crap...this time on an expensive lifters
Fastforward II: ~ 2 years ago I was involved in a very nice A460 build.....the owner requested .904" Crower lifters. Upon arrival, the inspection revealed that Crower had machined this really coool micro groove between the oil band/waist of the lifter.....they FIXED it

Before someone thinks I'm trying to burn a cross in Morel's yard......we are a stocking dealer for said lifter & I may have been the guy that sold the ones that Fabio just had to adjust....they just need to FIX it.

Yep, Morel machines their brand name lifter bodies higher than other brands by about 0.0005", but exactly how much and relative to OEM spec I don't know off the top of my head. Yes, the Comps have a smaller diameter llifter body which allows more oil to the feed holes, and they also have two oil holes 90-degrees to the lifter gallery while the Morel's have one oil feed hole 180-degrees to the lifter gallery. Damn straight they're going to need different setups. Cool Morel recommends a 0.0015" clearance for their roller lifters; obviously the engine builder can fine tune from there. The Comps are definitely more plug-n-play for the majority of builds....such as is an SCJ head, while the Morels should be approached more like a "you finish it" E460 head (that's an extreme comparo but it paints the picture).

The world of custom engine building includes a myriad of parts that might not fit or clear a neighboring component. Having in the BBF arsenal a solid roller lifter option that requires custom fitment more often than the other options is no different than, say, an end user shocked to learn that his Kaase pump does not clear his main stud girdle or oil pan without grinding and/or clearancing. Maybe for some people the component is in need of being "fixed," to other people it simply needs to be "set up." Wink

Paul


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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  richter69 on April 3rd 2013, 12:37 pm

I had a fresh set of Morels put in when I did the past build, I didnt start having probles until anout 1/2 way into the 2nd season (ford thunder race in tn) after that race I found the exh tip on #5 burnt up. upping the oil press made no diff, in fact nkne of the exh were oiling worth a damn. I know the lifterbore clearance didnt get smaller. My theory is the proximity hole for the oiling is on the cam side of lifter and the more extreme angle of the valve placement side loads the lifter to the bore....... where oil needs to be getting to the hole. Maybe as time went by the lifter and bore wall wear took out all the little imperfections that would allow oil to pass to the hole.

Maybe the green oil was a crutch to the little oil it did get, for the tn race it had vr1 in it, all I know is it damn sure didnt run up there like it did here, vr1 and chewing up p rod tips onnthe exh side.

bottom line is a guy needs to check stuff over and not assume its all working likie its suppossed to.
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 3rd 2013, 4:29 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Paul Kane wrote:
nitro717 wrote:I put new morel lifter in to replace the old comps and now have no oil up top. Using a drill to prime it havent started it yet, did notive to oil hole are 90degrees off from the comps. Get about 40 lbs of pressure with the drill.
Morel intentionally manufactures their lifters with a lifter body diameter that is on the high side (those which are sold under the Morel brand name). They do this so that the performance engine builder can size his lifter bore clearances exactly where he wants them, just like sizing the pin end of a con rod, for example. It's intended as high-end application stuff. If you don't set the lifter bore clearance, you may not get adequate top end oiling.

New blocks will need to have the lifter bores sized, and used blocks often need to be sized...or you can lightly notch the lifters instead of honing the lifter bores. (Another nice thing is if a used block's lifter bores are worn a thou or so, the Morels can "compensate" for that in some builds.) I think it's great that we have a lifter body with alkl of this in mind, and from a high quality manufacturer.

And Morel makes some very high quality lifters. People who use them and companies that offer them under their own brand name include: Force, Roush/Yates, Hendrick's, RCR...Isky, Crower, Merc, Lunati, and more.

Paul

Paul, the difference between Ford's high to low spec. for lifter dia. is but .0005". I doubt that much of the issue here is high vs. low.....above the high side would be another issue.

Comp's 836-16 lifter is ~ at the low side. In 1986 I was having an issue with pushrod erosion....I put a lot more oil to the upper gallery [I had a Boss 9 block]....no relief. I had to use the hillbilly grind or file thing to resolve it. My contact at Comp was made aware of the issue and the set of lifters we got the next year had the feed hole rotated in the lifter 90* closer to the gallery......issue resolved. They FIXED it.

Fastforward: 7-8 years ago to Doug Rahn's A460 engine. Doug supplied a nice set of Crower Hippo lifters...guess what...little to no oil to the rockers...I was and still am pissed Shocked More hillbilly crap...this time on an expensive lifters
Fastforward II: ~ 2 years ago I was involved in a very nice A460 build.....the owner requested .904" Crower lifters. Upon arrival, the inspection revealed that Crower had machined this really coool micro groove between the oil band/waist of the lifter.....they FIXED it

Before someone thinks I'm trying to burn a cross in Morel's yard......we are a stocking dealer for said lifter & I may have been the guy that sold the ones that Fabio just had to adjust....they just need to FIX it.

Yep, Morel machines their brand name lifter bodies higher than other brands by about 0.0005", but exactly how much and relative to OEM spec I don't know off the top of my head. Yes, the Comps have a smaller diameter llifter body which allows more oil to the feed holes, and they also have two oil holes 90-degrees to the lifter gallery while the Morel's have one oil feed hole 180-degrees to the lifter gallery. Damn straight they're going to need different setups. Cool Morel recommends a 0.0015" clearance for their roller lifters; obviously the engine builder can fine tune from there. The Comps are definitely more plug-n-play for the majority of builds....such as is an SCJ head, while the Morels should be approached more like a "you finish it" E460 head (that's an extreme comparo but it paints the picture).

The world of custom engine building includes a myriad of parts that might not fit or clear a neighboring component. Having in the BBF arsenal a solid roller lifter option that requires custom fitment more often than the other options is no different than, say, an end user shocked to learn that his Kaase pump does not clear his main stud girdle or oil pan without grinding and/or clearancing. Maybe for some people the component is in need of being "fixed," to other people it simply needs to be "set up." Wink

Paul



Aint no way I'd run a Morel, Comp or any other roller lifter at .0015" clearance in a racing engine. I don't consider grinding a precision machined part like a roller lifter to be "set up".....they just need do what Crower did and fix it with the mini-groove. I fully understand making things fit...it's just part of an engine build but, roller lifters are not in the same league with oil pans , guide plates, etc. that suffer the rattail or bench grinder.

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Curt on April 3rd 2013, 4:41 pm

Lem Evans wrote:

Aint no way I'd run a Morel, Comp or any other roller lifter at .0015" clearance in a racing engine. I don't consider grinding a precision machined part like a roller lifter to be "set up".....they just need do what Crower did and fix it with the mini-groove. I fully understand making things fit...it's just part of an engine build but, roller lifters are not in the same league with oil pans , guide plates, etc. that suffer the rattail or bench grinder.

Well said Lem!

I would have given you an AMEN, but that might not have been taken seriously.
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 3rd 2013, 4:43 pm

richter69 wrote:I had a fresh set of Morels put in when I did the past build, I didnt start having probles until anout 1/2 way into the 2nd season (ford thunder race in tn) after that race I found the exh tip on #5 burnt up. upping the oil press made no diff, in fact nkne of the exh were oiling worth a damn. I know the lifterbore clearance didnt get smaller. My theory is the proximity hole for the oiling is on the cam side of lifter and the more extreme angle of the valve placement side loads the lifter to the bore....... where oil needs to be getting to the hole. Maybe as time went by the lifter and bore wall wear took out all the little imperfections that would allow oil to pass to the hole.

Maybe the green oil was a crutch to the little oil it did get, for the tn race it had vr1 in it, all I know is it damn sure didnt run up there like it did here, vr1 and chewing up p rod tips onnthe exh side.

bottom line is a guy needs to check stuff over and not assume its all working likie its suppossed to.

Relative to "proximity" there is more to it than the clocking of the oil feed hole in the lifter i.m.o. The oil feed hole in the Comp lifter is 25% more dia. and is also .020" closer to the oil source.

Without a doubt the Morel Ultra Pro lifters are a 'higher end' part than the 836 Comp but, they are no different than the cars and trucks we sell.....small details drive owner satifaction.

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 3rd 2013, 4:46 pm

Curt wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:

Aint no way I'd run a Morel, Comp or any other roller lifter at .0015" clearance in a racing engine. I don't consider grinding a precision machined part like a roller lifter to be "set up".....they just need do what Crower did and fix it with the mini-groove. I fully understand making things fit...it's just part of an engine build but, roller lifters are not in the same league with oil pans , guide plates, etc. that suffer the rattail or bench grinder.

Well said Lem!

I would have given you an AMEN, but that might not have been taken seriously.

Well, I might consider an exception to the .0015" IF a guy had the DCL coated Jesel stuff like you high rollers run Razz

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Curt on April 3rd 2013, 5:16 pm

Lem Evans wrote:

Well, I might consider an exception to the .0015" IF a guy had the DCL coated Jesel stuff like you high rollers run Razz

It only cost little more to run the good stuff, you just can't go as often. tongue
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  fatal addiction on April 3rd 2013, 8:35 pm

When it came down to buying lifters I was told the morrel was the best before the big keyway stuff..lol oh well just been a pain to make work.
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 17th 2013, 9:23 pm



Please notice that Keith Fulp's Crower Endura lifters have the micro groove from the oil band to the oil feed.....I've looked at Phillip's Crane Ultra Pro lifters and they have a similiar groove.
Morel says they dont need that groove that Fabio and others have had to free hand.....seems that someone is full of crap & in this case it aint Fabio.

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Dave C. on April 17th 2013, 9:29 pm

Yep we started my 545 on Jon's stand and pulled the covers off..Non of the Morels were oiling..Had to notch them all. Crying or Very sad put it back together and they worked just fine. Very Happy

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Bret Powell on April 17th 2013, 11:46 pm

I've had to groove them in Fords and Chevies. Part of the job, and also why I do not seal the intake down until I have oil at rockers. This is usually the biggest problem when running bushings and tight clearances.

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 18th 2013, 9:29 am

Bret Powell wrote:I've had to groove them in Fords and Chevies. Part of the job, and also why I do not seal the intake down until I have oil at rockers. This is usually the biggest problem when running bushings and tight clearances.

Bret

Bret, what do you consider 'tight'?

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Dave De on April 20th 2013, 3:21 pm

This post came a bit late for me as i put my A460 block 580 together a few months ago. The Morels were from my old D9TE block build and it oiled adiquately.
The first start today on the new build and I am barely getting oil thru the rockers but they are all dribbling out a small amount. I'm not sure if much oil will make it to the roller tip.

How much oil is enough?
And if i groove them its going to be done on a Bridge Port and all will be close to each other for the groove. Some have said the depth is .0015 but they look more like .015?

Details
SCJ heads, TI retainers, Kaase pump, block restrictors are .060, break-in oil is 15w-40 with plans to go to 20-50 (but maybe not). Oil pressure is 70psi hot at 1500 rpm but the oil is only 10 minutes old.
The car will be driven on the street for about 200 miles per year and then 40 runs down the track.

Thanks in advance
Dave
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Doug Rahn on April 20th 2013, 4:15 pm

I think Lem is real groovy man! Laughing
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2013, 8:20 pm

Dave, this is a picture of the groove that Crane puts on their Ultra Pro lifters. I know it's hard to see but it's much wider than the Crower groove but not as deep.


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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2013, 8:46 pm

Dave De wrote:This post came a bit late for me as i put my A460 block 580 together a few months ago. The Morels were from my old D9TE block build and it oiled adiquately.
The first start today on the new build and I am barely getting oil thru the rockers but they are all dribbling out a small amount. I'm not sure if much oil will make it to the roller tip.

How much oil is enough?
And if i groove them its going to be done on a Bridge Port and all will be close to each other for the groove. Some have said the depth is .0015 but they look more like .015?

Details
SCJ heads, TI retainers, Kaase pump, block restrictors are .060, break-in oil is 15w-40 with plans to go to 20-50 (but maybe not). Oil pressure is 70psi hot at 1500 rpm but the oil is only 10 minutes old.
The car will be driven on the street for about 200 miles per year and then 40 runs down the track.


Thanks in advance
Dave

Dave, I notice you said 'restrictors'.....so you are feeding 1/16" from the front and back?



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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2013, 9:11 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
David Cole wrote:I have those lifters in my A460 block. Oiling is correct. No need to notch or do anything to the lifters.
But....my block was honed to the correct clearance.

YES ... those lifters require a downward motion of the lifter body to force oil from the groove to the hole via lifter bore clearance. You won't see much oil up top regardless of the oil pressure unless the engine is running.

EDIT; According to them, these lifters were designed to run with NO other type oil restriction to the upper end. If you have an "A" type block with lifter bore oil restriction, it needs to be removed or the lifter needs modification.

Randy, I've heard the same more than once. Lifter mfrs. do not care if one kicks the rods out....just send all the oil to their lifters. But at the end of the day when the 'groove' is there seems there is plenty of oil for the pushrod and the lifter..... the lifter person[s] miss the whole point.... it aint all about how much oil is available to a lifter....it's about how much, if any, gets to the feed hole at the o.d. of the lifter to feed the pushrod.

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Dave De on April 20th 2013, 10:10 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
Dave De wrote:This post came a bit late for me as i put my A460 block 580 together a few months ago. The Morels were from my old D9TE block build and it oiled adiquately.
The first start today on the new build and I am barely getting oil thru the rockers but they are all dribbling out a small amount. I'm not sure if much oil will make it to the roller tip.

How much oil is enough?
And if i groove them its going to be done on a Bridge Port and all will be close to each other for the groove. Some have said the depth is .0015 but they look more like .015?

Details
SCJ heads, TI retainers, Kaase pump, block restrictors are .060, break-in oil is 15w-40 with plans to go to 20-50 (but maybe not). Oil pressure is 70psi hot at 1500 rpm but the oil is only 10 minutes old.
The car will be driven on the street for about 200 miles per year and then 40 runs down the track.


Thanks in advance
Dave

Dave, I notice you said 'restrictors'.....so you are feeding 1/16" from the front and back?



Yes 1/16th holes on the restrictors for both front and back.
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2013, 10:15 pm

10-4...so that aint an issue.

If you gotta mill I'd knock a flat .0015 off the deal and rerun the deal.

One pair.

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Dave De on April 20th 2013, 10:20 pm

Lem Evans wrote:10-4...so that aint an issue.

If you gotta mill I'd knock a flat .0015 off the deal and rerun the deal.

One pair.

A flat is better than a groove? I can do either.

How much oil do I need up top anyway?
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2013, 10:28 pm

Dave De wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:10-4...so that aint an issue.

If you gotta mill I'd knock a flat .0015 off the deal and rerun the deal.

One pair.

A flat is better than a groove? I can do either.

How much oil do I need up top anyway?

I was thinking a flat would be easy, in that you have some supply already. Just do one pair and see how it goes.


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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  rmcomprandy on April 20th 2013, 10:48 pm

A magnetic table surface grinder works great ... a .002" flat seems about right for most lifters.
Even on the inner plunger of a hydraulic lifter if you wish to make them act like a "Rhodes".

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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  cool40 on April 20th 2013, 10:52 pm

a file works too. jocolor
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Re: new morel lifters no oil to top?

Post  rmcomprandy on April 20th 2013, 11:27 pm

cool40 wrote:a file works too. jocolor

How do you hold the tolerance to .002" ...? That's one great pair of hands, Razz

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