572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

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572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 13th 2013, 1:15 pm

So as part of a new Drag Week/ True Street plan, I'm going to build a 572" out of my accumulated spares from previous iterations of the engine in my '71 Mustang convertable; SVO block, Scat 4.5" crank and rods, 10.8:1 4.5" bore pistons with A-460 heads rubbed on by Charlie Evans and a low rise V1 SVO A-460 manifold. It'll be EFI as I am used to it now and I have the entire EMS-Pro set-up from my first EFI rodeo. This engine will go into the convertable when the 588" in it now goes into the '87 notch project. I'll start that thread later after doing more reading on others succesfull BBF/Fox threads.

My target is a lower maintenance, high torque, 750 HP at 6200 or so and to use a hydro roller around 260/270@.050 with ~.700 lift by re-using most of the 1.8:1 shaft rocker set-up I already own. Has anyone here built something similar and have advice/experience on which hydraulic rollers seem to work best? I went from flat tappet to solid rollers in the other BBF's I've done and missed that part of the learning curve.


Last edited by CDMBill on April 13th 2013, 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  dfree383 on April 13th 2013, 1:26 pm

Working on one right now, not with a460 heads though.
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  windsor on April 13th 2013, 1:29 pm

Again, very fascinated by your goals this time around. I've always wanted hydroroller but ears so many negatives on these boards about them. I believe a460 heads have a heavy valve but I really hope this works for you. Definitely subscribed. My goal is drag week 14
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  J.Toney on April 13th 2013, 1:52 pm

Phillip Oakley is putting a similar deal together for a guy her in MI, he may be able to chime in. It was a truck pull setup making around 950hp. Now I believe the goal will be mid-high 700's with a HYD roller and pump gas compression, but carb vs EFI. Owner plans on driving around and duning it.
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 13th 2013, 2:38 pm

Valve train mass is the key question as I understand it, which is the reason for the post. I want to have an engine that I can worry about a bit less and spend less on refreshing valve springs, rockers and general lash paranoia. That's why the lower peak power RPM objective as I understand that there is limit using moderate springs with the 2.300 intake and the HR's. It will have a T56 behind it if it matters.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  c.evans on April 14th 2013, 12:52 am

CDMBill wrote:Valve train mass is the key question as I understand it, which is the reason for the post. I want to have an engine that I can worry about a bit less and spend less on refreshing valve springs, rockers and general lash paranoia. That's why the lower peak power RPM objective as I understand that there is limit using moderate springs with the 2.300 intake and the HR's. It will have a T56 behind it if it matters.

CDMBill,

I don't believe I'd go with the 2.300" valve. I like the flow numbers produced by the 2.350" valve. I'd say let's pay particular attention to the weight of the intake valves, and possibly think about some other options. For example, the stainless steel Ferrea valve for the A-460 heads weighs 168.5 grams, whereas the same spec REV valve for the A-460 heads weighs 154.5 grams, for a 14 gram difference. I need to look over my notes and also your flow sheet.

Charlie

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  dfree383 on April 14th 2013, 12:55 am

with a Hyd Rollers limited RPM potential the lifter is the first thing to worry about, IMO the weight of the valves isnt as hugh factor at 6500, but still go as light as pratical.
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  rmcomprandy on April 14th 2013, 10:56 am

windsor wrote:Again, very fascinated by your goals this time around. I've always wanted hydroroller but ears so many negatives on these boards about them. I believe a460 heads have a heavy valve but I really hope this works for you. Definitely subscribed. My goal is drag week 14

When rules stipulate that you MUST ... what are you gonna do?

The negatives are still there. You just have to overcome them somehow.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 14th 2013, 4:34 pm

c.evans wrote:
CDMBill wrote:Valve train mass is the key question as I understand it, which is the reason for the post. I want to have an engine that I can worry about a bit less and spend less on refreshing valve springs, rockers and general lash paranoia. That's why the lower peak power RPM objective as I understand that there is limit using moderate springs with the 2.300 intake and the HR's. It will have a T56 behind it if it matters.

CDMBill,

I don't believe I'd go with the 2.300" valve. I like the flow numbers produced by the 2.350" valve. I'd say let's pay particular attention to the weight of the intake valves, and possibly think about some other options. For example, the stainless steel Ferrea valve for the A-460 heads weighs 168.5 grams, whereas the same spec REV valve for the A-460 heads weighs 154.5 grams, for a 14 gram difference. I need to look over my notes and also your flow sheet.

Charlie

Charlie, I think I had a senior moment, that set of heads does have the 2.350 intakes in them. REV vs. Ferrea That is a big difference in valve mass, are they hollow stem? Given the Ferrea's survived 7K plus for several years I figured they would be safe at the lower rpm. What I don't have is sense of the dfference in the weight of the hydraulic rollers vs. the solids I have run up to now, and how big a deal that weight is on the pushrod side.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 14th 2013, 6:14 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
windsor wrote:Again, very fascinated by your goals this time around. I've always wanted hydroroller but ears so many negatives on these boards about them. I believe a460 heads have a heavy valve but I really hope this works for you. Definitely subscribed. My goal is drag week 14

When rules stipulate that you MUST ... what are you gonna do?

The negatives are still there. You just have to overcome them somehow.

Randy, this isn't a rules driven deal, its a "I'm going to put the 1000 hp pump gas 588" in the lightest 87 Fox notch we can figure out how to build" and build another A 460 head motor for the 71 convertable so I can still have fun with it without having to redo the accessories, headers etc. and I can go back to the cowl hood with hinges. As background taking a 4100 lb. car to Drag Week in the Street Race big block naturally aspirated class is knife to a gun fight territory, same deal with the NMCA True Street events or other NMCA classes I enter occasionally. So I figure the CHP Mustang notch my co-driver Floyd has donated to the cause is a better approach to the 'street car' racing stuff and the 71 can go back to more all around fun hence the hydraulic roller idea.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 14th 2013, 6:21 pm

windsor wrote:Again, very fascinated by your goals this time around. I've always wanted hydroroller but ears so many negatives on these boards about them. I believe a460 heads have a heavy valve but I really hope this works for you. Definitely subscribed. My goal is drag week 14

You'll love Drag Week except druing the actual event which mostly feels like the sleep deprivation nationals. To clarify, the left over parts 572 (with hydraulic roller lifters?) is to go into the 71 convertable I've taken to evry Drag Week I've done since '05. The 2012 driveline will go into the new to me '87 Fox notch.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  windsor on April 14th 2013, 6:37 pm

Bill, I know very well your 71 and have followed your moves every step of the way.

I often thought "man that drivetrain would fly in a fox body".

My goals are similar to yours in my Falcon but would be with 620 inches in a Premier block. That's why I'm so interested in your results.

Food for thought, titanium intake valve? I know that adds expense.
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  Lem Evans on April 14th 2013, 7:11 pm

CDMBill wrote:
c.evans wrote:
CDMBill wrote:Valve train mass is the key question as I understand it, which is the reason for the post. I want to have an engine that I can worry about a bit less and spend less on refreshing valve springs, rockers and general lash paranoia. That's why the lower peak power RPM objective as I understand that there is limit using moderate springs with the 2.300 intake and the HR's. It will have a T56 behind it if it matters.

CDMBill,

I don't believe I'd go with the 2.300" valve. I like the flow numbers produced by the 2.350" valve. I'd say let's pay particular attention to the weight of the intake valves, and possibly think about some other options. For example, the stainless steel Ferrea valve for the A-460 heads weighs 168.5 grams, whereas the same spec REV valve for the A-460 heads weighs 154.5 grams, for a 14 gram difference. I need to look over my notes and also your flow sheet.



Charlie

Charlie, I think I had a senior moment, that set of heads does have the 2.350 intakes in them. REV vs. Ferrea That is a big difference in valve mass, are they hollow stem? Given the Ferrea's survived 7K plus for several years I figured they would be safe at the lower rpm. What I don't have is sense of the dfference in the weight of the hydraulic rollers vs. the solids I have run up to now, and how big a deal that weight is on the pushrod side.

Agreed, the track record of the Ferrea S.S. valves has shown them to be tough customers. I.M.O. the hyd. roller cams are not race cams but, it seems that is not what you are after in this case. At and under 6,500 rpm in a street machine should be doable. Like always it's about the package and that 1st gen. 1 x 4 manifold is a good fit...makes more power below 6,000 rpm than the current TFS 1 x 4 manifold. I've got a few ideas.....give me a call if you wish.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 14th 2013, 9:45 pm

windsor wrote:Bill, I know very well your 71 and have followed your moves every step of the way.

I often thought "man that drivetrain would fly in a fox body".

My goals are similar to yours in my Falcon but would be with 620 inches in a Premier block. That's why I'm so interested in your results.

Food for thought, titanium intake valve? I know that adds expense.

The 588" has the series 3 A460 heads with the chamber and port cnc program that Lem developed with TFS. Those heads have 2.400 TI intakes for all the reasons cited above. We took a bit of a shot in the dark back in '11 with the cam, compression and cylinder head along with the change to the A460 TFS tunnel ram and the two Accufab throttle bodies. I'm very happy with the results especially the 91 Cali pump gas compatibility we acheived.

I had been looking for an early Falcon as I've always liked the body style, but when Floyd my co-driver came up with the '87 notch that sealed the deal. 620", yikes, i'll be seeing your tail lights.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 14th 2013, 9:48 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
CDMBill wrote:
c.evans wrote:
CDMBill wrote:Valve train mass is the key question as I understand it, which is the reason for the post. I want to have an engine that I can worry about a bit less and spend less on refreshing valve springs, rockers and general lash paranoia. That's why the lower peak power RPM objective as I understand that there is limit using moderate springs with the 2.300 intake and the HR's. It will have a T56 behind it if it matters.

CDMBill,

I don't believe I'd go with the 2.300" valve. I like the flow numbers produced by the 2.350" valve. I'd say let's pay particular attention to the weight of the intake valves, and possibly think about some other options. For example, the stainless steel Ferrea valve for the A-460 heads weighs 168.5 grams, whereas the same spec REV valve for the A-460 heads weighs 154.5 grams, for a 14 gram difference. I need to look over my notes and also your flow sheet.



Charlie

Charlie, I think I had a senior moment, that set of heads does have the 2.350 intakes in them. REV vs. Ferrea That is a big difference in valve mass, are they hollow stem? Given the Ferrea's survived 7K plus for several years I figured they would be safe at the lower rpm. What I don't have is sense of the dfference in the weight of the hydraulic rollers vs. the solids I have run up to now, and how big a deal that weight is on the pushrod side.

Agreed, the track record of the Ferrea S.S. valves has shown them to be tough customers. I.M.O. the hyd. roller cams are not race cams but, it seems that is not what you are after in this case. At and under 6,500 rpm in a street machine should be doable. Like always it's about the package and that 1st gen. 1 x 4 manifold is a good fit...makes more power below 6,000 rpm than the current TFS 1 x 4 manifold. I've got a few ideas.....give me a call if you wish.

Thank you Lem. I will be calling this week.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  windsor on April 15th 2013, 3:47 pm

Ha, that drive train in a Fox will take home the BB/NA trophy every time. As long as Saterlee doesn't win with his hybrid.

Keep us posted on how this goes.
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  windsor on April 15th 2013, 3:50 pm

Oh and I meant the Ti valve for the hyd roller which I know sounds silly, buuuut…

I found these on the Callies/Morel website, a .903 dia high rpm hydraulic roller lifter for the BBF. Must be new. http://johncalliesinc.com/product.php?ProductNo=6084



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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  windsor on April 16th 2013, 2:47 pm

FYI, just heard from Chris Straub, these lifters handle 260# seat and 650# open pressure.

Go for $995 Shocked
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 16th 2013, 11:08 pm

windsor wrote:FYI, just heard from Chris Straub, these lifters handle 260# seat and 650# open pressure.

Go for $995 Shocked

They sound perfect and afforable too Shocked That said they are lot less than the EX-roll stage 2's.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  droppedf100 on April 18th 2013, 9:40 am

Sounds like a sweet deal so you can enjoy the cruiser a bit more and still be way faster then most. What is the best passed to date in your car? I've known about your car since it was it Car Craft years back. Bad ass ride for sure.

Also my truck had issues with rollers before so I switched to a solid flat tappet and have had very good luck with it for the 2 years and 1000's of street miles. And I actually picked up a tenth on motor over the solid roller so it's a win/win for me. Just a thought
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  BigBlockRanger on April 18th 2013, 4:41 pm

CDMBill wrote:
You'll love Drag Week except druing the actual event which mostly feels like the sleep deprivation nationals.

buwhahaha Yes indeed.

Saterlee's 632 Chevy-stang is not legal for BB/NA Street Race. He is in Super Street.
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 18th 2013, 11:44 pm

I like those guys, what did they average last year in SS BB/NA?

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  CDMBill on April 18th 2013, 11:48 pm

droppedf100 wrote:Sounds like a sweet deal so you can enjoy the cruiser a bit more and still be way faster then most. What is the best passed to date in your car? I've known about your car since it was it Car Craft years back. Bad ass ride for sure.

Also my truck had issues with rollers before so I switched to a solid flat tappet and have had very good luck with it for the 2 years and 1000's of street miles. And I actually picked up a tenth on motor over the solid roller so it's a win/win for me. Just a thought

9.62@142.2, mostly 9.70's and 9.80's with the launch enrichment issue last year, all 1.70+ 60fts. Got that fixed now should be back to 1.40s. Hopefully we'll pick up with the fox body instead of the barge. That's why I'm building the barge motor.

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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  BigBlockRanger on April 19th 2013, 1:46 pm

CDMBill wrote:I like those guys, what did they average last year in SS BB/NA?

Their quickest run was a 9.87 @ 138 mph in LA. They were last man standing in the class, so they did not lean on it the rest of the week.
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Re: 572" A460 hydro roller street strip track engine

Post  windsor on April 19th 2013, 3:58 pm

Shoooot you may pick up close to a second in the fox. Not out of the realm of possibility.

Have you deciding which way to go on the juice roller?


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