4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  mikey hefner on May 25th 2013, 5:55 pm

What would be the rough estimate to get the caps installed??

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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  Nevs on May 25th 2013, 6:08 pm

mikey hefner wrote:What would be the rough estimate to get the caps installed??

I had a set done several years ago, at that time it cost me $325...with caps.
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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  powerstrokeace on May 25th 2013, 9:15 pm

How much do the Blue Thumder caps sell for?



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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  powerstrokeace on May 25th 2013, 9:24 pm

How much do the Blue Thumder caps sell for?



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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  the Coug on May 26th 2013, 5:50 am

powerstrokeace wrote:How much do the Blue Thumder caps sell for?



Ace

Ace you will have to call a Blue thunder dealer to get a price, Personally I would call Barry he is a dealer...
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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  mikey hefner on May 27th 2013, 4:08 pm

is there anyone around Spartanburg sc that anyone on here might recommend to do the work??

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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  466cj on May 27th 2013, 6:35 pm

mikey hefner wrote:What would be the rough estimate to get the caps installed??

Including Line bore/hone expect to pay about $200 - $300 labor. Price depends on the shop and area.

powerstrokeace wrote:How much do the Blue Thumder caps sell for? Ace

Survival has the Blue Thunder caps and bolts for the center three listed for $365.20

http://store.survivalmotorsports.com/blue-thunder-search-by-product-main-bearing-caps-billet-ford-big-block-429-460-three-center-main-cap.html

Again between difference in cost of caps and extra work/cost to install not getting into anything about the webbing good or bad is better to get a D0VE-A block provided you don't have a bunch of money in your existing block. If you ever go to sell the block later the D0VE-A is more desired and retains its value better.



Last edited by 466cj on May 27th 2013, 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added word labor so no confusion)

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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  69F100 on May 27th 2013, 6:42 pm

mikey hefner wrote:is there anyone around Spartanburg sc that anyone on here might recommend to do the work??

Here is the guy that did mine 864-229-6665 he is in Glenwood SC I drove 500 miles around trip for him to do mine and have no regrets. My buddy has been using him for years he knows his stuff for sure.
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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  466cj on May 27th 2013, 7:27 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
RiverRacer wrote: Bolts will PULL when torqued, whereas STUDS will CLAMP.
Actually, both types of fasteners (bolt & stud) provide clamping force; how they ramp up that clamping force is slightly different and should be addressed accordingly. Further, there is more to consider (than just the clamping forces alone) when securing the mains caps as best as possible.

Bolts have both a vertical and twisting force. A stud will only have a vertical force. A stud applies the clamping force more evenly. A stud engages more threads and usually has a higher tensile strength. The nut is usually a fine thread which can carry a higher load than course. A stud can in these application when installed by someone who knows what they are doing result in a higher clamping load.

Paul Kane wrote:
466cj wrote:Here is a link some more info and picture of a thin web block converted. You can see where the angled outer bolt hole is and the contour of the casting. As for drilling deeper for "more meat" well can come to your own conclusions as to if that will help or not.
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99930&page=2
If you are using the image in your link as reference and to question the thick part of the main webbing where the longer outer bolts can provide a benefit over the shorter outer bolts, then it does not depict that at all. In fact, that image further underscores the importance of the longer bolts since the shorter ones clearly enter/secure only at the narrowest part of the standard main webbing as your linked image shows.

Go put a block on an engine stand, rotate it upside down, and look for the area of thicker main webbing beneath the pan rail. Then you'll understand what is being discussed.

What I was trying to show in the picture is where the outer bolt hold anchors and the fact that you are removing material from a part of the main webbing that helps support the inner bolts. Perhaps you should look at a block and then maybe you will understand what I and some others are saying...

Drilling the outer bolts deeper does not change that and just removing more material from the block.That area of the block is attached and supported by what is below already and not the point. All you need is enough threads so that a bolt will not shear the threads. In cast iron the rule of thumb is 1-1/2 times the root diameter of the bolt. Once you have enough thread engagement not to shear the thread the bolt will break before pulling out the threads.

Also the splayed outer bolts have a vertical and horizontal force component. The force on the main caps is basically down so the vertical clamp load on the outer bolts is not as great as the inner bolts. As I said in another thread some prefer a smaller outer bolt to leave more material in that area and someone else said same here, not to mention some other respected builders.



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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  Paul Kane on June 10th 2013, 8:58 pm

466cj wrote:
Paul Kane wrote:
RiverRacer wrote: Bolts will PULL when torqued, whereas STUDS will CLAMP.
Actually, both types of fasteners (bolt & stud) provide clamping force; how they ramp up that clamping force is slightly different and should be addressed accordingly. Further, there is more to consider (than just the clamping forces alone) when securing the mains caps as best as possible.

Bolts have both a vertical and twisting force. A stud will only have a vertical force. A stud applies the clamping force more evenly. A stud engages more threads and usually has a higher tensile strength. The nut is usually a fine thread which can carry a higher load than course. A stud can in these application when installed by someone who knows what they are doing result in a higher clamping load.
Most certainly the different fasteners have different attributes; I noted that earlier. And most certainly the studs are generally stronger than the OEM bolts in regards to tensile strength. Both those points being noted, it does not make the stud the automatic, "go-to," preferred choice in every application. And in my opinion the common aftermarket main stud for the 2-bolt 385 Series is almost always the wrong way to go in most high horsepower builds that use 2-bolt passenger car blocks.
_________________________________________



466cj wrote:
Paul Kane wrote:
466cj wrote:Here is a link some more info and picture of a thin web block converted. You can see where the angled outer bolt hole is and the contour of the casting. As for drilling deeper for "more meat" well can come to your own conclusions as to if that will help or not.
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99930&page=2
If you are using the image in your link as reference and to question the thick part of the main webbing where the longer outer bolts can provide a benefit over the shorter outer bolts, then it does not depict that at all. In fact, that image further underscores the importance of the longer bolts since the shorter ones clearly enter/secure only at the narrowest part of the standard main webbing as your linked image shows.

Go put a block on an engine stand, rotate it upside down, and look for the area of thicker main webbing beneath the pan rail. Then you'll understand what is being discussed.

What I was trying to show in the picture is where the outer bolt hold anchors and the fact that you are removing material from a part of the main webbing that helps support the inner bolts. Perhaps you should look at a block and then maybe you will understand what I and some others are saying...

Drilling the outer bolts deeper does not change that and just removing more material from the block.That area of the block is attached and supported by what is below already and not the point. All you need is enough threads so that a bolt will not shear the threads. In cast iron the rule of thumb is 1-1/2 times the root diameter of the bolt. Once you have enough thread engagement not to shear the thread the bolt will break before pulling out the threads.

Also the splayed outer bolts have a vertical and horizontal force component. The force on the main caps is basically down so the vertical clamp load on the outer bolts is not as great as the inner bolts. As I said in another thread some prefer a smaller outer bolt to leave more material in that area and someone else said same here, not to mention some other respected builders.
There is no such "cast iron rule" that specifies thread engagement of 1-1/2 times the thread diameter. There is an SAE guideline that recommends 1-1/2 times of thread engagment between male-to-female threads and even that guideline has various recommendations depending on the material(s) used. And in the case of steel this is a great guideline to follow. But a 7/16" bolt x 1.5 = 0.650" of thread engagement. There is no way that I can concur that a measely 0.650" of thread engagement is adequate under the circumstances of an outer main bolt into a cast iron block webbing, and in fact more thread engagement will positively be suprerior without question. Nor do I dare agree that just 0.650" of thread engagement in this example is adequate relative to your statement that "the bolt will break before pulling out the threads." If you really believe that, then give it a try. You will discover (the hard way) and conclude that threading deeper does change the dynamic of the anchor point and spread the load more greatly along the main webbing than focusing it in a smaller area.

By the way, the primary main bolts are 1/2-inch bolts, do you see Ford using the SAE steel thread engagement "1.5 factor" and using the bolts to penetrate just 0.750" deep into the block (0.500" bolt x 1.5 = 0.750")? No, they extend more than an inch into the main webbing.

Ideally, the outer bolts should not only extend deep into the main webbing (and thusly, into the thickest part of the standard web blocks), but the threads should also be counter-bored so that the top threads are not pulled out easily away from the surface area of the casting where there is little reinforcement around them. By counter-boring, the threads start deeper in the block and the material between the caps and the threads is "sandwiched" and helps further hold in place/prevent the threads from pulling out at all. You see this feature used elsewhere on the OEM block's threads, and this is one of the reason why.

The 17-degree splay (what you refer to as the "hoizontal force component") is to help minimize cap walk--specifically, minimize the "pulling inward" of the main caps toward the crankshaft centerline.

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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  mikey hefner on June 10th 2013, 10:45 pm


Didn't want to start a battle over my question, just mainly wanted to know if it would help strenghthen my block enough to hit my goal of at least 900 or so N/A hp and a bit of nitrous if I felt the need for something more.

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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  powerstrokeace on June 10th 2013, 11:44 pm

Start with a Dove-A block or a A460 and be done




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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  dfree383 on June 11th 2013, 12:06 am

Room to grow with an A460 or Eliminator block, better value for the future.
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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  466cj on June 11th 2013, 12:51 am

Paul, have to look at thread engagement percentage not to be confused with number of threads engaged. Factory does not like wearing out tooling and tends to keep thread engagement percentage low resulting in a need for more total threads engaged. Lots can be found in the machinist handbooks and there are equations available to calculate what is needed to avoid thread shearing. I'd suggest doing the calculations and then let me know if you still feel the same... Your idea that angling the bolts helps cap walk, suggest you do some load calculations on splayed vs. vertical and tell me what you find... Outer bolts historically were splayed in an attempt to tie into the hopefully thicker webbing near the pan rail. Makes sense on a SBC... Studs done right can result in higher clamping loads and can be a help if you have a problem with cap walk, stronger caps can help too.

Agree with others D0VE-A way to go for 4 bolt and the aftermarket blocks are a great choice and investment over the long term.


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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  IDT-572 on June 11th 2013, 12:57 pm

Even the cheapest (low cost) caps are stronger than what they are getting bolted to. The angular advantage of the outer bolt is to pull the cap outward into the main register that helps tremendously to help with cap walk.

To each his own, I myself use grade 10 socket head cap screws on all four bolts. May not be the best, but it works for me very well , no sign of flex or cap walk on all the engines I have used them on.
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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  Mike R on June 11th 2013, 7:20 pm

Paul, Would I gain anything by machining my main caps and using a 1 inch strap? From what I've read from your posts it seems like a stock set of caps and factory bolts would be more than adequate for 700 to 800 horse power with a stock block.

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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  dfree383 on June 12th 2013, 1:00 am

Mike R wrote:Paul, Would I gain anything by machining my main caps and using a 1 inch strap? From what I've read from your posts it seems like a stock set of caps and factory bolts would be more than adequate for 700 to 800 horse power with a stock block.

Yes that method is an improvement, it helps minimize the caps bowing / flexing. They will still bounce at high hp levels, but it helps alot.
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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  Paul Kane on June 12th 2013, 1:27 am

Mike R wrote:Paul, Would I gain anything by machining my main caps and using a 1 inch strap?
I have not personally built and run an engine that had a "main cap strap" modification done to it. I would think it offers some increased integrity. I'm pretty sure both the halo girdle and the main cap straps are stripped down versions/derived from the full-blown, true block girdles which extend from one pan rail, across the main caps, and on to the opposite pan rail, like these examples:





I still think that the above type block girdles offer the most significant improvement to the 2-bolt blocks; the lesser options (halo and strap) offer less relative to their specific designs. That doesn't make either useless and I do feel both have advantages unto themselves.

Mike R wrote:From what I've read from your posts it seems like a stock set of caps and factory bolts would be more than adequate for 700 to 800 horse power with a stock block.
Although the 2-bolt blocks have been successfully pushed beyond 1000 hp in extreme builds by those who really understand these engines and exactly what they are doing, the policy over here is to not exceed 800 hp naturally aspirated with 2-bolt blocks when it comes to customer engine builds (we may go further than that with our in-house builds). We have done a number of customer builds shy of 800 hp and using 2-bolt blocks and OEM main bolts, pump gas friendly, race gas only, recreational, marine, drag racing, etc. They all seem to run fine (as verified when servicing some of them after years of operation). Having said that, they are not sold to anyone who comes in off the street but only to those who truly understand tuning, preventive maintenance, how to properly run an engine hard, etc. And all of these engines run at 6500 rpm or below. MikeR, I don't think you'd have any problem building and running such an engine. My only suggestion is to err on the loose side of clearances since things do move around a bit more than they would than with striffer blocks with 4-bolt main caps.

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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  Mike R on June 12th 2013, 6:52 pm

Thanks for your input Paul. I have a 528 2 bolt main short block that made 611 hp with Pro Comp heads. I'm going to be using Blue Thunder heads which will give me approximately 13.3 compression and a larger roller cam. I plan on running E-85 for fuel, I'm guessing 750 hp.

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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  Lem Evans on June 12th 2013, 8:25 pm


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Re: 4 bolt conversion on a D9 block

Post  Paul Kane on June 12th 2013, 9:37 pm

Mike R wrote:Thanks for your input Paul. I have a 528 2 bolt main short block that made 611 hp with Pro Comp heads. I'm going to be using Blue Thunder heads which will give me approximately 13.3 compression and a larger roller cam. I plan on running E-85 for fuel, I'm guessing 750 hp.

Welcome. 750 hp on an alcohol fuel should be no problem.

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