small block questions..

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small block questions..

Post  bluef100fe on July 24th 2013, 8:50 am

My buddy asked me about building a boosted 408 Windsor.... he wants to do fuel injection and dual fuel systems so he can drive around on pump gas and race on the good stuff. He wants to make close to 1000 hp on a race tuneup and 5-600 on pump gas...I don't know who's got the best block ? FRPP has a block and I think dart? Anybody else have one I should consider... I don't mess with the sbf much thanks
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Re: small block questions..

Post  LivermoreDave on July 24th 2013, 9:57 am

At the power levels you describe, Dart or World Products. I too noticed a Shelby version of the 9.5" deck SBF, it appeared to have a strong design in the bottom.

Dave.

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Re: small block questions..

Post  whatbumper on July 24th 2013, 11:10 am

Pretty much all of the 4 bolt main ford racing blocks are good enough for that build. Is he dead set on a 408? He can go with a much smaller turbo with a smaller engine.

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Re: small block questions..

Post  bluef100fe on July 24th 2013, 3:07 pm

Not sure on the exact displacement but I think he wanted to be around 400 inches and be conservative with the rpm and the camshaft.. This build is suppost to be for a ford ranger 4x4 that runs hard on the street but can also be taken offroad if he feels like getting it dirty...
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Re: small block questions..

Post  kim on July 24th 2013, 9:43 pm

The 4.125 overbore of the aftermarket blocks will enable larger displacement with less stroke. Also facilitate some great heads. Or if he wants even more displacement.... and less RPM to achieve his desired power levels. A 450 cu in small block, with a nice hair dryer,... not to hard to make 1000hp..

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Re: small block questions..

Post  whatbumper on July 25th 2013, 12:24 am

not hard with any cubic inch in my opinion.

definitely big bore and since its a street truck and 4x4 deal i would do a 3.75 inch stroke with a 4.125 bore. any head will be fine for your goals but used set of yates would be a great choice and you can find them for the $2500 range with rockers pretty often. you wouldnt necessarily need the special valves for that power level. but the AFR's or TFS high ports would be a close second. a decent victor sr efi intake and an elbow with 90mm throttle body. fast xfi or holley efi for injection. the rpm will be under 7500 which is not a big deal with a sbf. we can talk turbo size later as you actually have a ton of choices.

the dual fuel system deal will actually be a pain in the rear. it would be much easier to plumb a single system with a valve to change the fuel out.

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Re: small block questions..

Post  bluef100fe on July 25th 2013, 10:19 am

Ok I worded my last post wrong.... I meant to type/say have the flexibility to be able to run pump swill, race gas and possibly methanol... we had talked about a set AFR'S... I was on the fence about either the 185's or the 205's cc intake runners? A single turbo will be enough to achieve his power goals? Or would smaller twin turbos be a better deal? Thanks for all the help so far...
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Re: small block questions..

Post  LivermoreDave on July 25th 2013, 10:40 am

For what little I know of pressurizing the intake tract, may I ask a few questions or/and offer opinions?

Would two smaller turbos offer a better "street-able" package than one large turbo? Could a vacuum/boost controlled or electric WOT fuel selection switch be incorporated into the fuel supply system? I agree with the "big bore theory" and good flowing cylinder heads that have been serviced for turbo applications. An EFI fuel delivery system is almost a must!

One thing that has me scratching my head, 1000 horsepower on hand and driving off road!

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Re: small block questions..

Post  kim on July 25th 2013, 1:10 pm

As for the heads, 205's would still be on the small end, but acceptable.

In dealing with forced induction, you get away from conventional NA concerns. Your not worried about air charge velocity, the turbo/supercharger provides it. Your biggest concern is making the hole big enough to get the air through without building a bunch of pressure and heat. With turbo applications, and or almost any supercharger, you can make good power with pinholes.....

Seeing we are ford specific, stock iron head E7 ford mustang heads, with twin T3/T4 turbos will push 1000hp. But the charge temps are going to be astronomical, and require the thing to be alcohol only with one hell of an intercooler.

The ricers all brag about boost pressures, boost pressure, measuring the pressure in the manifold is simply a function of the difference between the head units air input capability and the pinholes in your vehicle mapped against your cams inefficiency to allow the air into the cylinder. All else equal, higher boost numbers does equate to more air in the engine, but when building something from scratch, why make all else equal?

Going with a known turbo build, get rid of the pinholes..... reduce intercooler concerns, and allow alternative fuel uses. HP is a result of the burning of a certain amount of fuel, displacement, RPM, big block, small block, forced induction, NA, N2O, are all just facilities to allow that burning fuel to take place.

Ideally, similar to building a great NA engine, first determine what HP you really want to get. Then decide how.

a 90mm to 106mm single turbo on a 425 to 450 cu in small block would be able to push about 1800hp on full tilt.

Something in the 60mm to 80mm range would put you into the 800 to 1500 range.

If you use great heads, then your going to have less boost pressure to brag about, but, your going to have lower charge temps to try and cool.

As for the smaller/larger, twins take more plumbing, the turbo mount itself is cleaner, just hang two off the end of the headers, but the important air, the intake charge air takes routing two sources into an intercooler and then back to the intake. Single larger turbo systems drive more like an NA engine, building boost a little slower off idle and allowing the person to utilize a greater range of throttle application. Smaller twin combos tend to respond quickly off initial throttle touch, making the overall package seem like a bigger/harder to drive engine. In a nutshell, kind of like have a rheostat that allows you to go from 1 to 10, or one that starts at 5 and ends at 10.

For the variables the OP wanted to try and achieve, a bigger single would allow the greater range of drivability and yet still allow the peak performance desired. Twins, would more likely make it a twitchier monster right off the initial throttle hit.


Then again, if simply going for big dick appeal, go with a 520 cu in big block, with a 120mm turbo, and call it an easy 2500hp.........

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Re: small block questions..

Post  whatbumper on July 25th 2013, 2:59 pm

that bbf with a 120 would be cool in a ranger.  Laughing 


to be honest this will be relatively easy to build.  i searched YB for 2 minutes and found this. http://www.yellowbullet.com/classifieds/viewlisting.php?view=36013

that would be a great starting point.  add your efi and turbo and it would be fun to drive plus have the power you wanted for off road.  you wouldn't have to spin it like a drag motor to make power.  I would use a single 80mm mid-frame turbo but a single 76 would work too.

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Re: small block questions..

Post  bluef100fe on July 28th 2013, 9:19 pm

Thanks guys this will give him plenty to think about..
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Re: small block questions..

Post  738drvr on September 3rd 2015, 10:22 pm

Get the AFD Cleveland heads out of Austrailia. Barnetts in MI is a distributor for them in the U.S. I have an early set of 4V SPVR that flow 340/240@.700. They now have a set that flows 400. Great kidney shape chamber, great flow transitions. Just finishing up a 409 Clevor that should make 700 on motor and hopefully twice as much on boost. Early RDI block. Any Ford Racing block will work well. Dart and World are both good choices.
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Re: small block questions..

Post  rmcomprandy on September 4th 2015, 12:06 am

bluef100fe wrote:My buddy asked me about building a boosted 408 Windsor.... he wants to do fuel injection and dual fuel systems so he can drive around on pump gas and race on the good stuff. He wants to make close to 1000 hp on a race tuneup and 5-600 on pump gas...I don't know who's got the best block ? FRPP has a block and I think dart? Anybody else have one I should consider... I don't mess with the sbf much thanks

That is almost 2.5 horsepower per cubic inch  ... with a "driver" capability ... good luck.

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Re: small block questions..

Post  whatbumper on September 4th 2015, 11:03 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
bluef100fe wrote:My buddy asked me about building a boosted 408 Windsor.... he wants to do fuel injection and dual fuel systems so he can drive around on pump gas and race on the good stuff. He wants to make close to 1000 hp on a race tuneup and 5-600 on pump gas...I don't know who's got the best block ? FRPP has a block and I think dart? Anybody else have one I should consider... I don't mess with the sbf much thanks

That is almost 2.5 horsepower per cubic inch  ... with a "driver" capability ... good luck.

Pretty darn easy now days with efi.

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