Exh VAlve ?

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Exh VAlve ?

Post  colormebad on August 8th 2013, 7:16 pm

Engine has less that 3 hours running over the past year since built new..Went back to re-tq head studs and noticed all the exh valves only, had a wear pattern and you could hang your nail on it just a little...Int valves are perfect..Sent my heads back to the ones they came from...> TEA...They sent the valves to Victory..Talked to victory and all they said was didn't look too bad, was gona polish them and re-harden and send back to TEA..TEA agreed with me the valves were soft are not hardened at all to start with...Not sure what they going to do..TEA ahould have got the valves back today...







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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  tfsbbf466 on August 8th 2013, 8:53 pm

Why not run lash caps? Though I don't think this is normal

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  bbf-falcon on August 8th 2013, 9:53 pm

Yea,I've seen that before. I just installed lash caps and all was good.

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  cool40 on August 8th 2013, 9:57 pm

If you paid for hard tips you should get them.IMO What a Face 
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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  Lem Evans on August 8th 2013, 10:37 pm

Steel or Ti. valves.

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  colormebad on August 8th 2013, 11:53 pm

Lem Evans wrote:Steel or Ti. valves.
The intake is Ti & they said the exh was steel


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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  Lem Evans on August 9th 2013, 12:03 am

Wow...never seen S.S. valve with erosion that one could 'hang' a finger nail in.
 
Good news is ....the roll pattern on the tip of the valve looks good Cool

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  colormebad on August 9th 2013, 12:14 am

Lem Evans wrote:Wow...never seen S.S. valve with erosion that one could 'hang' a finger nail in.
 
Good news is ....the roll pattern on the tip of the valve looks good Cool
You could just barely feel it with your nail when you went downward..Victory said they didnt look that bad, Just a polish and reharden...But they could never give me a straight answer, Why the exh valves only would do that with about 3 hours running over the past year..Int's are fine

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  Lem Evans on August 9th 2013, 12:29 am

I'd assume that your Ti. valves have a hard steel tip installed....otherwise they would need a lash cap.

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  colormebad on August 9th 2013, 12:41 am

Lem Evans wrote:I'd assume that your Ti. valves have a hard steel tip installed....otherwise they would need a lash cap.
The way they explained it they were just hardened...TEA offered to send me some lash caps free of charge, Its just what i paid for installed tips and didnt get that to start with....It was another race shop i bought the heads from , TEA are the ones that sold the heads to them..TEA said they only do what the other business tells them to do...I blame the race shop...TEA told me to send the heads back and they would make it right..Im just waiting on a call from TEA to know what to do...Victory sent the valves back to TEA wed..He said when he got the valves back , and on the bench he would call me' once they figured out what to do..

Sam Vincent said he thought the way the springs were an overkill for my cam , might have caused bounce...Would it do that on the Exh only ?

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  Lem Evans on August 9th 2013, 1:08 am

I do not know what "bounce" would have do with it....but the exh. opens against a lot of pressure...works the rocker, p. rod and lifter alot harder.

What spring do you have on it?

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  colormebad on August 9th 2013, 1:15 am

Lem Evans wrote:I do not know what "bounce" would have do with it....but the exh. opens against a lot of pressure...works the rocker, p. rod and lifter alot harder.

What spring do you have on it?
Total Engine Airflow Spring Info
Seat pressure: 405
Open Pressure: 1020
PSI 1250 Springs
Installed Height 2.250

Cam specs
Gross Lift .776 In .753 Ex
Dur @.050 281 In 300 Ex
Lobe Lift   .4850 In      .4710 Ex
L/S 115.0
Dur @ .020 Tappet Lift 314 In 338 Ex
Valve Adj .020 In & Ex
Intake -----    .4850x1.75=848 Lift
Ex-----           .4710x1.70=800 Lift
1.70 Ex & 1.75 Int

Valve Timing    Open                       Close
@    .050     Int:       25 BTDC              75     ABDC
                  Exh:     85 BBDC              35     ATDC

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  Lem Evans on August 9th 2013, 1:25 am

What head is this? What does the p. rod look like?

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  Lem Evans on August 9th 2013, 1:30 am

"Installed Height 2.250"

Is this correct?

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  c.evans on August 9th 2013, 1:41 am

The intakes are obliviously titanium Victorys. A magnet should stick to the tip of the valve when the hardened tips are installed. To me the stainless steel exhaust valve looks like a Ferrea valve, but maybe it could be a Victory valve. So step one is to find out for sure who the manufacturer of the exhaust valve is. R&R the exhaust valve and look for a lazer etched part number up by the tip in the area of the keepers.

Next item, the greater the alloy of stainless (EV4 vs EV8 etc.) the softer or more mallable the stainless steel valves are and the more they need tip protection. My understanding is that some stainless steel valves are induction hardened, and others actually have a hardened stellite tip installed, just like a titanium valve does. Again a magnet will tell you whether or not you have that, on the stainless steel exhaust valves. By the way, high alloy stainless is not magnetic.

Big valve spring pressures are generally not going to let the exhaust valve bounce, if it were bouncing we would see a wagon spoke pattern on the tip, so bounce is the wrong diagnosis. Lem has correctly described the problem when he said the "load" is greater when opening an exhaust valve against cylinder pressure.

I don't know that we need to try to blame anybody, and I believe the simplest solution may be as already mentioned,,, just run a lash cap on the exhausts only. Precision size and thickness lash caps are available through either Victory 1 Performance or PPPC (Precision Products Performance Center). Both companies are in North Carolina.

Hope this helps,
Charlie

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  colormebad on August 9th 2013, 1:44 am

Lem Evans wrote:"Installed Height 2.250"

Is this correct?
2.250 is right...


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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  c.evans on August 9th 2013, 1:49 am

Yes Lem, I just checked.  PSI #1250 is for 2.250 installed height, 395 lbs on the seat and 1178 lbs open. Max lift is 1.050" with that spring.  I'd say that's way too much spring for a .800" & .850" lift camshaft. Those retainers look like those + .100 retainers to me.

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  Lem Evans on August 9th 2013, 1:53 am

Relative to the 'bounce' thing ....I suspect Sam may be talking about spring 'surge' ....which is more likely to happen when a spring is waay above coil bind ...which I suspect is your case.

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  colormebad on August 9th 2013, 1:56 am

c.evans wrote:Yes Lem, I just checked.  PSI #1250 is for 2.250 installed height, 395 lbs on the seat and 1178 lbs open. Max lift is 1.050" with that spring.  I'd say that's way too much spring for a .800" & .850" lift camshaft. Those retainers look like those + .100 retainers to me.

Charlie

Sam said that spring should be used on a 950 lift of better..Said they were an overkill...Victory said there was no such thing as an overkill with better springs...comp cams said springs were fine also..Said you wouldn't have to change them soo often.. Looks like the springs would be about 200thous from coilbind..

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  colormebad on August 9th 2013, 1:57 am

Lem Evans wrote:Relative to the 'bounce' thing ....I suspect Sam may be talking about spring 'surge' ....which is more likely to happen when a spring is waay above coil bind ...which I suspect is your case.
I think thats what he meant

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  Lem Evans on August 9th 2013, 2:06 am

colormebad wrote:
c.evans wrote:Yes Lem, I just checked.  PSI #1250 is for 2.250 installed height, 395 lbs on the seat and 1178 lbs open. Max lift is 1.050" with that spring.  I'd say that's way too much spring for a .800" & .850" lift camshaft. Those retainers look like those + .100 retainers to me.

Charlie
Sam said that spring should be used on a 950 lift of better..Said they were an overkill...Victory said there was no such thing as an overkill with better springs...comp cams said springs were fine also..Said you wouldn't have to change them soo often.. Looks like the springs would be about 200thous from coilbind..
Depending......060"-.075" off of coilbind is where you need to be.

I ask about your P. rods ?

I do not give a rat's ass what Victory , Comp or T.E.A. says....Sam is on the money about 'overkill'.

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  c.evans on August 9th 2013, 2:12 am

Not quite so. Coil bind is at 1.130" with those springs. The 1178 lbs is at 1.200" open. You are opening the exhaust valve to 1.450" which is .320" away from coil bind. The spring surge that Lem is talking about is what we see in the slow motion photography from the SpinTron machine. I call it the Hula-Hoop because the spring is dancing around like a girl doing the Hula-Hoop. The theory now is that the closer we operate the spring to coil bind, the less chance it has to dance around and surge.

Anyway, I still say you have a mismatch between your camshaft lift and your valve springs. Like one guy built the shortblock and didn't communicate with the cylinder head people. Maybe you talked to the wrong tech guy at Comp Cams or something.

Charlie

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  torino501 on August 9th 2013, 7:41 am

wow.. crazy good stuff here. I guess at these power levels and extreme engine builds (.850 lift 1000 lbs + open) one better know their stuff.deffinatley not a musclemustang/carcraft build... talk about paying attention to detail.

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  c.evans on August 9th 2013, 9:27 am

Another thing that I would like to know. You are saying TEA said this and that. Victory 1 said this and that and Comp Cams said this and that. Did you YOURSELF actually talk to TEA, Victory and Comp Cam,,, or are you telling us second hand knowledge that maybe your engine builder said; "Victory said there was no such thing as an overkill with better springs". (First off, just because a spring is bigger, that does not neccessarily make it a better spring).

Additionally, I want to know WHO you talked to at TEA and Victory 1? Mike, Cory, Derrick, Conrad or whomever.

Reason being, I know most of those guys at TEA, and I also know the owners of Victory 1. If they truly advised you in that way, I'll call and get them straightened out.

Charlie Evans

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Re: Exh VAlve ?

Post  IDT-572 on August 9th 2013, 10:28 am

I don't know the spring rate of that spring , but at over .300 off of coil bind at valve lift of a little over .700 makes me wonder if it has enough open pressure.
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