Gas or E85?

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Gas or E85?

Post  bb429power on September 18th 2013, 1:44 pm

Well I want to buy a carb very soon but I can't decide between gas and E85. The main thing I don't like about E85 is the inconsistency between blends. I'm worried about my tune always being off. And as far as carbs, I was going to get a pro-systems 950. According to their calculator I need 900 cfms, and that 950 will only flow around 850. So should I still get the 950 or is it time to get a dominator and a adapter for my manifold? It's street driven but I want the best ET's possible when at the track.
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  kim on September 18th 2013, 1:55 pm

the inconsistency in E85 blend is less an issue than the inconsistency in the areomatics (addatives) in gasoline.

The alcohol in E85 is an oxygenate, as it is in regular alcohol use. So stiometric fuel ratio isn't as critical. With very little HP variation, people run dedicated alcohol systems rich or lean to achieve various goals, cooler engine, less fuel used, warmer engine, less oil milking, etc... A good alcohol tune is also less sensitive to atomospheric changes. Temp, humidity, pressure, slow or speed up an alcohol car less than a dedicated gas car. Or in other words requires less effort in chasing a tune, less rejetting.

Sounds like you should consider a manifold and a carb. Adaptors for dommies to standard flange carbs, not the best situation, big bore to small bore, to the plenum.

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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  bb429power on September 18th 2013, 6:04 pm

Thank you! That puts things more into perspective for me. If the inconsistencies in E85 don't effect the tune that much then it seems like it's the better choice.
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E85

Post  Rich Osmond on September 18th 2013, 9:40 pm

Agree. E85 works great and I don't think you will be disappointed. Not clear on your combination but with E85 my experience has been that you will get better performance going with a slightly larger carb than the formula would tell you. Hard to see where you would go wrong with a dominator intake and two circuit 1050.

Call Horsepower Innovations as well. SUPER nice guy and he will build you a top notch carb!

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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  J.Toney on September 18th 2013, 10:09 pm

Rich Osmond wrote:Agree. E85 works great and I don't think you will be disappointed. Not clear on your combination but with E85 my experience has been that you will get better performance going with a slightly larger carb than the formula would tell you.  Hard to see where you would go wrong with a dominator intake and two circuit 1050.

Call Horsepower Innovations as well. SUPER nice guy and he will build you a top notch carb!
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  69F100 on September 19th 2013, 12:25 am

Justin didn't you put a fuel cell in the truck if not don't run the e85 in the steel tank it will cause you all kind of problems. One thing to remember if you not driving the truck all the time don't let the e85 sit in the carb for along time.
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  J.Toney on September 19th 2013, 7:39 am

The "don't let it sit" is a bit of a myth, from what I've seen a heard. Between big weekends, I'll only burn a tank every few weeks or even a month, and I have multiple freinds doing the same. I will probably drain my system or use an additive in storage, but that's about it. Others don't do anything. Maybe the climate in different regions has different effects, but where I am in Michigan we haven't had any issues. With a cell, I have been told and seen others swap foam out. But I use a steel tank. There are still a lot of myths and voo-doo surrounding this fuel, but the only way to really know is try it for yourself. I don't think you'll be disappointed. My only real dislike is its not on every street corner, but I don't drive it everyday. An when I do, I plan the route to go a by a station or two.
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  85bigblockfox on September 19th 2013, 8:18 am

J.Toney wrote:The "don't let it sit" is a bit of a myth, from what I've seen a heard.
Its not a myth here in oklahoma. Chances are if you let it set you are going to have to pull apart your carb and clean the jelly out of it. My buddy has cleaned his carb 3 times this year because of this. I have seen nitrous solinoids not work because of e85. And it ate through a buddy of mine braided line that had a rubber core. Im not sold on e85 personally. A lot of my buddies run it with little to no gain except for its a cheaper fuel. But if it gells up in the carb having to pull it apart and clean it would eat the cost savings up.
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  J.Toney on September 19th 2013, 8:59 am

That's odd to me, how would injectors and fuel systems in late model vehicles work reliably? Maybe from a better EVAP system I guess. I've pulled mine apart twice since may, with no residue (now more than gas anyway). I did spring a leak on my rubber core steel braid line, but it is 8 years old. So I just snipped the line and re-fastened the fitting. I'll be changing lines this winter, if I see anything obvious ill post it.
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  J.Toney on September 19th 2013, 9:31 am

85bigblockfox wrote:
J.Toney wrote:The "don't let it sit" is a bit of a myth, from what I've seen a heard.
Its not a myth here in oklahoma. Chances are if you let it set you are going to have to pull apart your carb and clean the jelly out of it. My buddy has cleaned his carb 3 times this year because of this. I have seen nitrous solinoids not work because of e85. 
 How long is "let it set"? Both fuel AND nitrous solenoids? What does the residue look like?
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  P.Lafferty on September 19th 2013, 9:35 am

Little to no gain except cheaper fuel...SOLD! But seriously I've seen J.Toney and many others setups work flawlessl. I wonder if the e85 is just cleaning the crap that was already in there system. Just a thought.

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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  85bigblockfox on September 19th 2013, 10:01 am

J.Toney wrote:
85bigblockfox wrote:
J.Toney wrote:The "don't let it sit" is a bit of a myth, from what I've seen a heard.
Its not a myth here in oklahoma. Chances are if you let it set you are going to have to pull apart your carb and clean the jelly out of it. My buddy has cleaned his carb 3 times this year because of this. I have seen nitrous solinoids not work because of e85. 
 How long is "let it set"? Both fuel AND nitrous solenoids? What does the residue look like?
He runs race e85 has a sbc mustang and has pulled the carb apart 3 times since may. He races it about once a month. The nitrous deal was he didnt spray it for about 3 weeks or drive the car. One night in mexico it started banging popping on the bottle fuel pressure wasnt right according to the gauge. Took the car home pulled carb off, nitrous plate etc. The plate had jelly looking stuff in it so he had to take apart and clean the whole fuel system. After it was put back together guage worked perfect with no issues.
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  kim on September 19th 2013, 11:10 am

Gauge is always going to be a problem, is with regular gas, the feed is dead head. So whatever is in the line stays there forever.

E85, because it is 15% gasoline, tends to have enough stability that it doesn't do anything in 99% of the cars out there. But you do have to pay attention to where you get it, how you store it, and a top lube/stabilizer periodically wouldn't be a bad idea. With every gas station and its mothers brother offering E85 these days, some sell lots and others have stagnant tanks. So if your pumping from a low volume gas station, you could ask for LOTS of water contamination. The weird thing about E85 versus gas, is as long as it doesn't sit, the water is easily pulled through the engine. The alcohol is what used to be sold to cold climate cars as "water drier" or fuel system de-ice. It was simply a pint/quart of alcohol.

Braided steel lines, unless they are the Teflon lined ultra high end stuff, will leak. Most get damn stinky in 5 years with no outside liquid noticeable, and if you can stand it to about 10 years, the drip like fish nets.... Cost of the game.

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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  J.Toney on September 19th 2013, 12:27 pm

kim wrote:Gauge is always going to be a problem, is with regular gas, the feed is dead head.  So whatever is in the line stays there forever.

E85, because it is 15% gasoline, tends to have enough stability that it doesn't do anything in 99% of the cars out there.  But you do have to pay attention to where you get it, how you store it, and a top lube/stabilizer periodically wouldn't be a bad idea.  With every gas station and its mothers brother offering E85 these days, some sell lots and others have stagnant tanks.  So if your pumping from a low volume gas station, you could ask for LOTS of water contamination.  The weird thing about E85 versus gas, is as long as it doesn't sit, the water is easily pulled through the engine.  The alcohol is what used to be sold to cold climate cars as "water drier" or fuel system de-ice.   It was simply a pint/quart of alcohol.  

Braided steel lines, unless they are the Teflon lined ultra high end stuff, will leak.  Most get damn stinky in 5 years with no outside liquid noticeable, and if you can stand it to about 10 years, the drip like fish nets....   Cost of the game.  
Good insight. I've only been on it for a short time, so lots to see and learn still. Thanks!
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  bb429power on September 19th 2013, 12:52 pm

Will it eat up a plastic fuel cell? I ran it for a few days without issues but I don't know how long it takes to eat away at stuff. My friend has used it in his f100 and his mark 8, not setup properly but he didn't have issues with leaking or gumming up. The gas sat for a long time before and it didn't have issues it just smelled bad.
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  J.Toney on September 19th 2013, 2:18 pm

http://raceone85.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general
Wouldn't hurt to fart around on here I'd bet. Smile
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  kim on September 19th 2013, 3:35 pm

Doesn't eat the fuel cell, carried methanol in plastic fuel jugs, usually ships in plastic barrels. Now some of the foams used in the cells for fire prevention and anti slosh are not compatable. But the cell material itself is fine.

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E85

Post  Fordpower on September 19th 2013, 10:44 pm

Its cheaper than running alky as in the price of the fuel  pump and type of fuel line and you can buy it at a pump. I have buddies that run it in there derby cars all the time with a holly red and rubber fuel line no problems. The biggest problem is finding somebody that knows what there doing when tuning the carb well, at least ours anyway!
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  bb429power on September 23rd 2013, 2:13 pm

I think I'm going with Horsepower Innovations, it will take longer to get it but in the end it should be a better carb than pro-systems. Both want to build me a 950. Pro-systems will flow 830 cfms while the H.I one will flow 880cfms. He is going to work over the venturies and boosters to make it flow better. And it will cost less, unless I have it powdercoated. Which, I wonder how well powdercoating will last with E85.
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  Dave De on September 23rd 2013, 6:26 pm

bb429power wrote:I think I'm going with Horsepower Innovations, it will take longer to get it but in the end it should be a better carb than pro-systems. Both want to build me a 950. Pro-systems will flow 830 cfms while the H.I one will flow 880cfms. He is going to work over the venturies and boosters to make it flow better. And it will cost less, unless I have it powdercoated. Which, I wonder how well powdercoating will last with E85.
I just ordered my second carb from Eric at HI. All this talk about fuel and climate I haven't seen anything bad in Michigan. Don't bother measuring fuel in season unless you need something to do. Early spring and late fall may have E70 or somewhere in between. The change comes with a higher price.
It's harder to read the plugs and there will be water vapor in your valve covers more so than gas. Change your oil more often and when you start it get it up to temperature to vaporize the water.

The obvious good stuff is that the engine will make great power for a low cost, run way cooler, cleaner, and the exhaust smell is not obnoxious. If you want to discuss fuel system aspects send me a pm with your phone number.

Dave
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  bb429power on September 27th 2013, 11:54 am

I ordered up a 950 from HP Innovations. Eric was very helpful and seems like a great guy to deal with. I just hope I can get it on by the 5th, which is when my race is. He said if he can get it done by then he will. I'm very happy with customer service so far, and we'll see how happy I am with the product/service in the end What a Face 
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  powerstrokeace on September 29th 2013, 1:02 am

bb429power wrote:I ordered up a 950 from HP Innovations. Eric was very helpful and seems like a great guy to deal with. I just hope I can get it on by the 5th, which is when my race is. He said if he can get it done by then he will. I'm very happy with customer service so far, and we'll see how happy I am with the product/service in the end What a Face 
eric's the man. he help me out alot.

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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  bb429power on October 6th 2013, 10:14 pm

Love the carb, no hesitation at all. Only issues I'm now having are that is sounds like it's loading up on fuel at times, and my fuel pressure drops down when hot and I can't get it back up until it cools down.
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  powerstrokeace on October 6th 2013, 11:24 pm

Call Eric. The e85 like alcohol will sound like its loading up or real fat


Ace
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Re: Gas or E85?

Post  bb429power on October 6th 2013, 11:26 pm

powerstrokeace wrote:Call Eric. The e85 like alcohol will sound like its loading up or real fat


Ace
I did but he didn't answer, so I'm going to call again tomorrow. I didn't know alcohol/ethanol did that, but that would be normal? If I hold it at 2,000rpms it will sound fat then eventually clear up.
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