Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

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Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  BigBlockRanger on October 17th 2013, 4:17 pm

I call this the 'bolt-together' motor because it's just that. I bolted it together with out of the box parts. Nothing custom, drop-in rings, no ported heads or intake. Just a basic cast crank 545 build that the average Joe might build. I've been running this engine in the car on the street (and Drag Week) for a couple of years now, eventually whittling it down to 10.46 @ 130 this past weekend in Noble. Car weighs 3515 with me in it, 3.55 gears, C6, 28" tires. Converter flashes to 4800-5000. I suppose it underperforms a bit, but I am still learning and enjoying the process of tweaking and tuning. FYI - I normally run in Amarillo, where the DA can be anywhere from 5500' on a good day to 8000' on a bad day. It's best in Amarillo has been a 10.98 @ 124, so the air up here really sucks.

11.5:1 pump gas 545
Holley 1050
FRPP Victor opened up to 4500
TFS Streets untouched
Timing locked at 36 degrees
Hooker Fox swap headers
Scorpion rockers/Jomar girdle

The cam that's in it is a solid roller Herbert HERCH6H.

INTAKE/EXHAUST
LIFT: 685/685
DUR @.050: 260/270
LOBE CENTER: 108

Anyway, it seems like the trend for the larger CI engines is to use a wider LSA. So my question is, if you were going to spec a new cam for this engine, what would you choose?
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  qtrhors1 on October 18th 2013, 12:15 pm

Sorry I cant answer your question but I do like the "average joe" "bolt together" combo you have. Trying to do something like that myself.

Tim

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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  Lem Evans on October 18th 2013, 12:33 pm

More duration and a wider LSA i.m.o.

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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  dfree383 on October 18th 2013, 2:00 pm

Your leaving a bunch of power on the table with the unported heads and intake. IMO
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  BigBlockRanger on October 18th 2013, 2:38 pm

Yes I know, but I'd kinda like to optimize it with "out of the box" heads and such first.

I don't race every week. It's just a car I have fun with on the street and at the track a few times a year.
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  LivermoreDave on October 19th 2013, 9:49 am

Although my reply isn't a recommendation for your "bolt together engine", I do believe you could unbolt that C6 and bolt in a C4 and realize a substantial increase in performance. Considering the C6 isn't a "top of the line" part.

Dave.

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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  quick 52 on October 19th 2013, 11:22 am

Did you see the post about maybe offering Freelander EMC 572 for Drag Week Event.... Sounds like its a bolt in cam change PLUS... That should shake things up in your class

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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  the Coug on October 19th 2013, 2:27 pm

quick 52 wrote:Did you see the post about maybe offering Freelander EMC 572 for Drag Week Event.... Sounds like its a bolt in cam change PLUS... That should shake things up in your class




what you don't realise is that Freeloaders cam is probably not a shelf item, Plus thos .904 Lifters are not Cheap and then having the Block bored to fit them is around another grand.... so much for those juice cams being cheaper.....If you can't adjust a set of Rockers then maybe you should just go with a Hyd Flat tappet that way the lazy people don't have to adjust lifters....I bet there was more than a few hours working on Push rod angles....
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  quick 52 on October 19th 2013, 4:37 pm

the Coug wrote:
quick 52 wrote:Did you see the post about maybe offering Freelander EMC 572 for Drag Week Event.... Sounds like its a bolt in cam change PLUS... That should shake things up in your class



what you don't realise is that Freeloaders cam is probably not a shelf item, Plus thos .904 Lifters are not Cheap and then having the Block bored to fit them is around another grand.... so much for those juice cams being cheaper.....If you can't adjust a set of Rockers then maybe you should just go with a Hyd Flat tappet that way the lazy people don't have to adjust lifters....I bet there was more than a few hours working on Push rod angles....
Think (I you) miss something he is offering the ENGINE... I said a bolt in cam change being a smart a$$ I meant the complete ENGINE that what is being offer up...

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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  cletus66 on October 22nd 2013, 10:50 am

Cool
quick 52 wrote:
the Coug wrote:
quick 52 wrote:Did you see the post about maybe offering Freelander EMC 572 for Drag Week Event.... Sounds like its a bolt in cam change PLUS... That should shake things up in your class


what you don't realise is that Freeloaders cam is probably not a shelf item, Plus thos .904 Lifters are not Cheap and then having the Block bored to fit them is around another grand.... so much for those juice cams being cheaper.....If you can't adjust a set of Rockers then maybe you should just go with a Hyd Flat tappet that way the lazy people don't have to adjust lifters....I bet there was more than a few hours working on Push rod angles....
Think (I you) miss something he is offering the ENGINE... I said a bolt in cam change being a smart a$$ I meant the complete ENGINE that what is being offer up...

Now, that WOULD be fun to watch.Twisted Evil 
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  dfree383 on October 22nd 2013, 2:42 pm

the Coug wrote:
quick 52 wrote:Did you see the post about maybe offering Freelander EMC 572 for Drag Week Event.... Sounds like its a bolt in cam change PLUS... That should shake things up in your class


what you don't realise is that Freeloaders cam is probably not a shelf item, Plus thos .904 Lifters are not Cheap and then having the Block bored to fit them is around another grand.... so much for those juice cams being cheaper.....If you can't adjust a set of Rockers then maybe you should just go with a Hyd Flat tappet that way the lazy people don't have to adjust lifters....I bet there was more than a few hours working on Push rod angles....
How many shelf grinds you run lately? Custom stuff is nominally more expensive than the shelf stuff and besides how many shelf hydraulic rollers have you seen for a BBF?

The lifters are the same price as the .875 ones and no more expensive than a good quality solid roller lifter from Isky, Crower or a high end Comp Cams part. The .875 short travel ones would have done the same thing, but I wanted the bigger wheels.

I could  have skipped the bushings and just had it honed to size and it's no where near a $1g to get it done . Both the lifters and the bushing where a choice made not a requirement for make the hydraulic roller work.

As far as the pushrods angles, they are what they are no monkey business or tricks.
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  BigBlockRanger on October 23rd 2013, 11:18 am

Any cam change I make will be a solid roller.  This is a hobby for me and I can't justify spending the extra $$$ just to go hydroller.

I was really just looking for a ball park figure for cams for this type of engine.  There just does not seem like there is much info out there for the average guy to make a good decision when it comes to the larger CI engines that are so easy to build now.

On the advise of a friend, I am going to concentrate my efforts on making the chassis work better before going in search of more power from the engine. It is 60 footing in the 1.48 range, but has a lot of body roll. I think I will just go ahead and put an arb in it and the wild rides S-box I picked up for free a while back.
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  cletus66 on October 24th 2013, 5:47 pm

BigBlockRanger wrote:Any cam change I make will be a solid roller.  This is a hobby for me and I can't justify spending the extra $$$ just to go hydroller.

I was really just looking for a ball park figure for cams for this type of engine.  There just does not seem like there is much info out there for the average guy to make a good decision when it comes to the larger CI engines that are so easy to build now.

On the advise of a friend, I am going to concentrate my efforts on making the chassis work better before going in search of more power from the engine.  It is 60 footing in the 1.48 range, but has a lot of body roll.  I think I will just go ahead and put an arb in it and the wild rides S-box I picked up for free a while back.
LOL, I think Freelander's cam change starts with the 6 bolts on your bellhousing !! Laughing 
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  windsor on October 24th 2013, 8:09 pm

BigBlockRanger wrote:

On the advise of a friend, I am going to concentrate my efforts on making the chassis work better before going in search of more power from the engine.  It is 60 footing in the 1.48 range, but has a lot of body roll.  I think I will just go ahead and put an arb in it and the wild rides S-box I picked up for free a while back.
Smart friend. I was looking at your thread on the other forum and was thinking exactly that, you need an ARB.
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  BigBlockRanger on October 25th 2013, 11:31 am

Yeah, even with air in the bag, it's just rolling over on that right rear really hard.

I've already got it on the jack stands in the shop (aka driveway) and am currently disassembling the back end to upgrade.   Now, if I could just find a new Team-Z arb in the box for $100.  lol
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  whitefield on October 25th 2013, 2:52 pm

BigBlockRanger wrote:Yeah, even with air in the bag, it's just rolling over on that right rear really hard.

I've already got it on the jack stands in the shop (aka driveway) and am currently disassembling the back end to upgrade.   Now, if I could just find a new Team-Z arb in the box for $100.  lol
Do away with the air bag ! Put a anti roll bar and a set of stock GT springs in rear cut to what ever ride height you want. That's what I did to my  mustang and it works great! I have team lower adjustable control arms granatelei  upper adjustable control arms UPR anti Roll bar with strange 10 way single adjustable shocks.

http://www.stangtv.com/project-cars/project-biting-the-bullitt/understanding-drag-racing-rear-anti-roll-bars/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=understanding-drag-racing-rear-anti-roll-bars

http://www.stangtv.com/news/video-team-z-motorsports-anti-roll-bar-install-how-to/
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  quick 52 on October 26th 2013, 10:20 am

what kind of rpm are you doing in the 1/4... with 545 and that size cam and heads would think some gear might help and open up the breathing of them heads and cam 4.10 would wake things up let it have what it want 6500 or a tad more

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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  BigBlockRanger on February 14th 2014, 12:00 pm

Reviving this thread....

I have not been to the track since the ARB install, but I keep going back to camshaft optimization.

Anyway, I was perusing the master lobe catalog yesterday just goofing and playing "cam designer" with the duration I though would be better and the lift I wanted to stay under/around, 0.730".

I came up with a couple of CR series lobes that I thought might be close.

CR2490  Intake  276 dur  .420 lift (.727 at valve)
CR2492  Exhaust 280 dur .420 lift (.727 at valve)
On a 110 LSA  (why 110?  just sounded like a good number to me.  lol)

What sucks is I went back and looked at the specs for a cam I used to own and it was:
CR4678R & CR4682R 112LSA
Intake   278 dur  .673 at valve
Exhaust 280 dur  .684 at valve

*Durations shown are @ 0.050

I kinda wish I still had that cam around to play with!  haha

So am I ball park or still in the dugout?  Need more than 110?  I know there are guys on here that are really good at selecting cams, but I'd like to learn a little more about the methodology of selecting cam lobes instead of just nodding my head and going with a recommendation.
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  quick 52 on February 14th 2014, 5:28 pm

BigBlockRanger wrote:Reviving this thread....

I have not been to the track since the ARB install, but I keep going back to camshaft optimization.

Anyway, I was perusing the master lobe catalog yesterday just goofing and playing "cam designer" with the duration I though would be better and the lift I wanted to stay under/around, 0.730".

I came up with a couple of CR series lobes that I thought might be close.

CR2490  Intake  276 dur  .420 lift (.727 at valve)
CR2492  Exhaust 280 dur .420 lift (.727 at valve)
On a 110 LSA  (why 110?  just sounded like a good number to me.  lol)

What sucks is I went back and looked at the specs for a cam I used to own and it was:
CR4678R & CR4682R 112LSA
Intake   278 dur  .673 at valve
Exhaust 280 dur  .684 at valve

*Durations shown are @ 0.050

I kinda wish I still had that cam around to play with!  haha

So am I ball park or still in the dugout?  Need more than 110?  I know there are guys on here that are really good at selecting cams, but I'd like to learn a little more about the methodology of selecting cam lobes instead of just nodding my head and going with a recommendation.

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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  quick 52 on February 14th 2014, 5:30 pm

quick 52 wrote:
BigBlockRanger wrote:Reviving this thread....

I have not been to the track since the ARB install, but I keep going back to camshaft optimization.

Anyway, I was perusing the master lobe catalog yesterday just goofing and playing "cam designer" with the duration I though would be better and the lift I wanted to stay under/around, 0.730".

I came up with a couple of CR series lobes that I thought might be close.

CR2490  Intake  276 dur  .420 lift (.727 at valve)
CR2492  Exhaust 280 dur .420 lift (.727 at valve)
On a 110 LSA  (why 110?  just sounded like a good number to me.  lol)

What sucks is I went back and looked at the specs for a cam I used to own and it was:
CR4678R & CR4682R 112LSA
Intake   278 dur  .673 at valve
Exhaust 280 dur  .684 at valve

*Durations shown are @ 0.050

I kinda wish I still had that cam around to play with!  haha

So am I ball park or still in the dugout?  Need more than 110?  I know there are guys on here that are really good at selecting cams, but I'd like to learn a little more about the methodology of selecting cam lobes instead of just nodding my head and going with a recommendation.
Do what they do work with Cam Co. and get a program

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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  CDMBill on February 18th 2014, 1:35 am

On my earlier 582" I started with a 112 LSA, 268/277 and after a small mishap, caused by me, we narrowed it to a 109, went quicker .4 sec., shifted at 6700 instead of 7200. First gen A heads, 11:1.

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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  BigBlockRanger on February 18th 2014, 10:48 am

Thanks Bill!    I've had some input that corroborates leaving the LSA in the 108-110 range.   That got me to looking at cams and I ran across a Lunati cam (40340906) that seems very very close to the lobes I was looking at in the Comp catalog.  I also think I will lower my shift point to see if it picks up any.  Since the last day of DW in 2012 in Tulsa, I have been shifting at 6500, but after watching the acceleration rate of the tach needle on a GoPro video of a run, I get the feeling that maybe I should be shifting lower, like back at 6000. (6000 was the shift point when we ran each other in Gilliam and that was the quickest pass the car had made at that time)  This has been reinforced by postings that indicate 6000 is about the max rpm for this cubic inch and OOTB TFS street heads.  

I don't know if I will swap cams before DW or not.  I would like to, but I don't know if it's in the budget considering some of the other things I need to do before then.  I plan to drop a little weight out of the car, install a little shorter tire and I hope to run in the 10.20's or so on DW.
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Re: Cam recommendation for the "Bolt-Together" motor.

Post  CDMBill on February 20th 2014, 12:50 am

I lose a tenth 200 rpm either side of 7700 with the last build, so maybe your shift point is 6300 or something. I also shift 7700-7800 on the 1-2, 7500 on the 2-3 which seems to be worth a tiny bit of ET. Datalog tells all.

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