TFS A-460 changes?

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TFS A-460 changes?

Post  J.Toney on December 15th 2013, 1:21 pm

Picked up a set of 10 bolt castings, these say BBF-1 on them. From what I gathered from the seller, they were new in '04. Newer castings I've seen have BBF-3X on them (I think?) Question What, if any, differences are there between these? Thanks, Joe
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  c.evans on December 15th 2013, 2:42 pm

Joe,

The new style TFS A-460 heads have been out since late 2003. These are all easily identifible because they are machined perfectly flat on the ends of the heads, and have the TFS logo engraved, (not cast) into the heads.

1. BBF 1 is the new style 10 bolt casting starting from that time.

2. BBF 2. Lem and I made some suggestions to them that we would like to see, and they told me that they would have to change the water jacket cores in order to do them, thus calling for a new casting. So BBF 2 has four changes / upgrades. They are; 1. 18 bolt heads, 2. corrected steam holes to match the Ford block, 3. elongated pushrod holes, 4. smaller combustion chamber volume.

3. BBF 3 is the same as BBF 2, but has the squared up rocker stud bosses, and more thread engagement in the exhaust rocker stud boss.

4. BBF 3X is intended for CNC porting, and is the same as BBF 3, but with smaller ports. That way there would be 100% clean-up of the ports when the heads were CNC ported. Some rookie first time buyers of CNC ported heads were complaining that the program didn't touch the floors or didn't touch here and there.

Hope this helps,
Charlie

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  JBR-3 on December 15th 2013, 3:12 pm

Charlie,

It sounds like the B460 small port castings are of the "BBF 1" variety, am I correct ?
Thank you,
JBR

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  c.evans on December 15th 2013, 4:13 pm

JBR-3 wrote:Charlie,

It sounds like the B460 small port castings are of the "BBF 1" variety, am I correct ?
Thank you,
JBR

No sir, the small port B460 Ford castings date back to the late 80's early 90's, and were intended for truck pullers with that 485 CID limit. They were also referred to as the peanut port heads.

As you likely know, there was also the true Pro Stock B460 castings in the 90's, which were a physically bigger head. Mr. Ed Lyons at Ford, told Mike and Rick Smith the owners of TFS, to just continue to use the B460 part number. Thus the confusion on the part of many.

The new style 2003 TFS BBF 1 heads were a clean slate of paper with all new tooling, cores, cope and drag etc.. They are "Cast As Ported" with a much better short side radius and many other flow improvements. Also,the porosity issues that some of the old heads had, were helped greatly.

I hope this helps,

Charlie

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  JBR-3 on December 15th 2013, 4:39 pm

Thank you, it does indeed help. Sometimes I get foggy on the history & revisions of all the heads,
sometimes the revisions are subtle and the normal Joe would not be privvy to what was even changed.
What a great forum.
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  J.Toney on December 15th 2013, 11:28 pm

Thanks for the input Charlie! Are any of these changes something I need to take into consideration before using these? They came w/T&D shaft rockers, using individual stands that have a piece of key stock welding pairs together. Is it possible to use the W.W. stand on these? Weighing whether it would be smarter for me to just use a stud mount/girdle setup. Nothing too trick or high RPM for me I'm betting.
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  c.evans on December 15th 2013, 11:41 pm

J.Toney wrote:Thanks for the input Charlie! Are any of these changes something I need to take into consideration before using these? They came w/T&D shaft rockers, using individual stands that have a piece of key stock welding pairs together. Is it possible to use the W.W. stand on these? Weighing whether it would be smarter for me to just use a stud mount/girdle setup. Nothing too trick or high RPM for me I'm betting.

Joe,

Yes, you can use the W.W. Engineering shaft mount rocker stands and arms on those 10 bolt heads. Also you can use a stud mounted rockers and girdle. However, since they came with T&D shaft mounted rockers, that's what I would run on them, assuming those rocker arms are still serviceable.

Charlie

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  J.Toney on December 15th 2013, 11:45 pm

The rockers look new, very little run time. I was more concerned about the stands. I've been looking through the shaft rocker at sticky thread, and have read some stories of the individual stands causing heartache.


Last edited by J.Toney on December 15th 2013, 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  c.evans on December 15th 2013, 11:51 pm

Well for 30 years it has been standard practice to weld the stands together. Many times the manufacturers are the ones who send the key stock material in their kits. Double weld them if you want.

Charlie

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  Wheelie58 on December 16th 2013, 9:48 am

c.evans wrote:Well for 30 years it has been standard practice to weld the stands together.  Many times the manufacturers are the ones who send the key stock material in their kits. Double weld them if you want.

Charlie
Like Charlie said....
I have one engine with T&D individual stands. Welded together, 1.8 ratio and it was trouble free for over 600 runs and several dyno pulls. My latest 618 uses WW 1.8s with the one piece intake stand, with exhaust stands welded to it. It has 1 year of running with zero problems.
All good stuff.
Keith
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  J.Toney on December 16th 2013, 9:52 am

Okie dokie. Just trying to avoid a "you should've known better"scenario.
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  norm on December 16th 2013, 7:42 pm

A Motorsport intake came with these heads. Would there be much benefit in running the trick flow instead?
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  c.evans on December 16th 2013, 8:24 pm

17 Hp,,,, if, if, if, the engine is big enough and the rpm range is high enough. This is something Lem and I tested on Ronnie's engine years ago, and he can tell you the specifics.

Charlie

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  J.Toney on December 17th 2013, 12:18 am

Its actually the TFS-A460-M (ad typo), but it looks very similar to me. I'm assuming dimensions are the same as the FMS unit? I had wondered about how it might work too, but I'm not even sure what size the engine will be, so there's alot of ways this could go I guess.
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  tfsbbf466 on December 17th 2013, 10:47 am

What about the 90s ford Motorsport a460 heads? Are they the same as the early trick flow? I can get part numbers if needed to correctly identify them. Do the steam holes not lining up cause problems with running warm? This will be driven on the street a lot.

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  J.Toney on December 17th 2013, 11:07 am

Very Happy 
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  powerstrokeace on December 18th 2013, 12:54 am

So if one ordered a new set of 10 bolt heads would it have the BB1 cast. I'm trying to understand as they offer so. Many option as of now


Ace
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  J.Toney on December 18th 2013, 7:17 am

powerstrokeace wrote:So if one ordered a new set of 10 bolt heads would it have the BB1 cast. I'm trying to understand as they offer so. Many option as of now


Ace
No, the BBF-1 casting is an older head. The -2,-3,and 3x are later revisions of the same basic head. Sounds like no port changes through these, but small external and durability changes. At least that's what I read.
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  torino501 on December 18th 2013, 10:51 am

Did the shape of the combustion chamber change along the way also??

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  J.Toney on December 18th 2013, 10:53 am

[quote="torino501"]Did the shape of the combustion chamber change along the way also??[/quote
You've been able to get different chamber sized for a long time, but you only need one head to do that. Shape itself I can't say for sure
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  Lem Evans on December 18th 2013, 8:47 pm

torino501 wrote:Did the shape of the combustion chamber change along the way also??

Yes, the chamber of the newer TFS stuff looks a lot like the old stuff that was corrected.

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  torino501 on December 18th 2013, 9:21 pm

Can you elaborate on the chambers lem.kinda getting up to speed on these a heads

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  powerstrokeace on December 29th 2013, 12:50 am

So what does on have to do to run the BBF1 heads for correctin the steam holes?

Ace
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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  c.evans on December 29th 2013, 2:44 am

powerstrokeace wrote:So what does on have to do to run the BBF1 heads for correctin the steam holes?

Ace

What I have done for years is use a small carbide burr and convert the round shape of the steam hole to a tear drop shape. On the heads you need to elongate the hole upward towards the manifold. Then on the A-460 blocks you need to elongate the holes downward towards the lower head bolt. Then you need to use a Cometic head gasket from Lem with his own part numbers.

It was Fel-Pro that screwed everything up in the first place about 15+ years ago. Then any manufacturer who copied the Fel-Pro gasket blue prints continued to make the same error.

Charlie

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Re: TFS A-460 changes?

Post  DanH on December 29th 2013, 4:45 am

[quote="powerstrokeace"]So if one ordered a new set of 10 bolt heads would it have the BB1 cast. I'm trying to understand as they offer so. Many option as of now


Ace[/

no more 10 bolt A460 heads from Trick Flow

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