A460 heads with solid flat tappet

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Post  tfsbbf466 on December 17th 2013, 10:52 am

I've had rollers fail twice on the street and though I made some mistakes I really don't want to go roller again. Looking to build a mid 500 range a460 block motor with 90s style Motorsport a460 heads and want to know if a street able solid cam can be grinded and make enough power to use these heads and c.i.

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Post  DanH on December 17th 2013, 2:28 pm

what was the specs on the roller cam, plus the spring pressure?

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Post  tfsbbf466 on December 17th 2013, 2:59 pm

I don't remember offhand but I really don't want to get involved in the roller stuff again if a solid flat tappet can do the job. I see cars on drag week destroy lifters every year. I drive my truck everywhere it goes. It's not worth the worries and aggravation right now. My last 2 flat tappets have given me no real problems.

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Post  bluef100fe on December 17th 2013, 5:33 pm

Im gonna go out on a limb here and say that you would be leaving some power on the table using a very large flat tappet.... verus a good roller cam... may be only 50 hp might be a 150 hp I don't have any hard data to back this up its just my opinion... Im sure the right builder can make some good power with a flat tappet A headed deal but I can't say that I've ever read of one being built and documented on the forum.... Are you bored with your tfs street headed engine already? What kind of power goals are you seeking now?
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Post  tfsbbf466 on December 17th 2013, 6:09 pm

I haven't seen any a460 solid ft builds at all that's why I asked. I'm not bored with it but a pretty stout set up has come up for a reasonable price and my pops wants my motor so we may make an exchange. I actually have a 2nd stage hooked up that I haven't used since the tracks are closed for the year.

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Post  norm on December 17th 2013, 9:32 pm

There are roller lifters available that don't use needles. I have broken a couple rollers in the past. Now running Crower endurex's- no needles.
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Post  tfsbbf466 on December 18th 2013, 7:38 pm

I just looked on summit the Isky Red Zones are over $1200. That's way steep. I'll just add an extra 100hp to the nitrous tune up.

So no one has had any success with a flat tappet A headed motor?

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Post  Lem Evans on December 18th 2013, 7:53 pm

The solid flat stuff is waaay more do-able than most think but, due to the heavier valves of the A460 package it'll be more of a challange than the CJ/SCJ heads. If your rpm needs are not high the pkg. could work well.

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Post  rmcomprandy on December 18th 2013, 8:24 pm

I built a 528 engine 3 summers ago, (4.5" bore & 4.15" stroke), for a single engine 28' Wellcraft "offshore pleasure" boat which used a custom ground flat tappet camshaft using Trick Flow "A"heads and A-460 block.

It works really, REALLY well.

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Post  tfsbbf466 on December 18th 2013, 8:52 pm

Glad to hear it can be done with some success. I'm not looking for ridiculously high rpm 6500 or possibly 7000. I just want a nice reliable cam package that makes good power. Will see a fair amount of nitrous as well. 4000lbs truck driven on the street a lot.

What kind of hp is possible with the heads cleaned up and a stout solid cam on pump gas? 565" early ford Motorsport intake, around 10.5:1 comp, 2" headers. Intake has an NOS fogger on it.

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Post  rmcomprandy on December 18th 2013, 9:05 pm

750 to 800 should be in the ballpark. More for a real RACE situation.

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Post  LivermoreDave on December 18th 2013, 9:31 pm

Reading your post and replies, it seems you could avoid the upcoming storm by using a hydraulic roller.

Dave.

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Post  nuclearcobra on December 19th 2013, 8:50 am

A few weeks back Lem made me a rather large custom grind solid flat tappet for a 552'' P51 head deal I'm putting together for a friend , that will be in the 800 hp range , it is a race grind tho and 14 to 1 on the compression.
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Post  dfree383 on December 19th 2013, 9:07 am

LivermoreDave wrote:Reading your post and replies, it seems you could avoid the upcoming storm by using a hydraulic roller.

Dave.
if he's shy about spending money on high end solid roller stuff, he's not going to like the prices on the hydraulic roller stuff that works.
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Post  tfsbbf466 on December 19th 2013, 12:48 pm

Yeah I have heard 1 positive for every 50 negative comments or opinions on the hyd roller stuff. I love it in the sbf I know that. If I can make 800 reliable hp with a solid ft on pump gas I'd be happy with that for sure. Then one day I'll step back up to the roller stuff.

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Post  LivermoreDave on December 19th 2013, 1:01 pm

dfree383 wrote:
LivermoreDave wrote:Reading your post and replies, it seems you could avoid the upcoming storm by using a hydraulic roller.

Dave.
if he's shy about spending money on high end solid roller stuff, he's not going to like the prices on the hydraulic roller stuff that works.

What is your opinion of his state of mind after the components (chosen) to application (reality) fail?

Dave. (the other Dave.)

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Post  kim on December 19th 2013, 1:43 pm

Two big crap shoots on the flat tappet stuff. 1 is the break in. Its going to be the headache of having a second set of springs on the engine to do the cam break in. And they better be about as light as the valves will tolerate. 100 closed 300 over the nose or LESS.....

Second is every oil change is going to be high dollar, your going to have to stick with Brad Penn, or Joe Gibbs racing oil. Just not enough zinc in anything to buffer the wear and seat problems of flat tappets on a cam. Flat tappet cam tech is going the way of non-hardened seats in heads.

You could avoid the break in headache by paying to have cam and lifters broke in, in a spintron (done external of your engine) then put the thing together.

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Post  LivermoreDave on December 19th 2013, 2:39 pm

tfsbbf466 wrote:Glad to hear it can be done with some success. I'm not looking for ridiculously high rpm 6500 or possibly 7000. I just want a nice reliable cam package that makes good power. Will see a fair amount of nitrous as well. 4000lbs truck driven on the street a lot.

What kind of hp is possible with the heads cleaned up and a stout solid cam on pump gas? 565" early ford Motorsport intake, around 10.5:1 comp, 2" headers. Intake has an NOS fogger on it.

First, Kim offers valid points as to the use of a flat tappet design lifter and related camshaft.

Second, if I understand your engine speed requirements (6500 rpm - 7000 rpm) a few things come to question, in my mind! To operate at that engine speed level efficiently (even for a short duration), valve springs must provide adequate pressure. Now let the Nitrous begin to flow, more valve spring pressure, maybe maybe not but to be on the safe side? Two things more and I'll shut up! A two ton vehicle with a camshaft to provide happiness at those engine speeds, maybe at the burger shack and while thinking of the burger shack, are you gonna cruise around and around the burger shack with the engine idling so the other hot rodders can hear how big your dick is? If any of this criteria sounds pleasing, the storm is just over the horizon!

Dave.

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Post  tfsbbf466 on December 19th 2013, 3:58 pm

Not sure what was meant with that rant but when I say drive it on the street I mean everywhere. To the track, to the burger shack as you call it, to the street races, sometimes to work, to the shore, etc. I build my stuff to enjoy it on the street and at the track. I'm on my 2nd solid ft cam in my 514 and have no issues so far and it's fairly stout. 266/278@.050. Yes the break in sucks and is extremely nerve racking but after that as long as you keep up on the valves and use good oil(I use VR20/50 race oil) they seem to treat me well. My roller went 2700 miles and I blew an intake gasket. When I pulled the lifters to inspect them it appeared the hardening was coming off the surface of the wheels. Brand new Comps with the edm hole.

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Post  tfsbbf466 on December 19th 2013, 3:59 pm

And it seems Randy and Lem feel it can work as well.

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Post  BigRigTech on December 19th 2013, 4:16 pm

Is there any additives that are recommended by the builders on here? I've been using 10w-30 Castrol with a bottle of the AC Delco additive as per my local engine builder's recommendations. The cam has 40 passes on it and a few dyno pulls, I guess I'll have some results to see when I pull my engine apart later this winter. I'm using the Howard's SFT lifters with the EDM hole.
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Post  kim on December 19th 2013, 5:10 pm

I don't mind whichever cam you decide to run. Its your engine. I will say, that if you had enough lifter bounce on the roller to damage the roller finish, I would be VERY leary of flat tappet combination. I have an F150 with 175k miles on a hydraulic roller. I have an exploder with 150k on a hydraulic roller... The valves in the A460 head are some large valves, they are going to take a hefty spring to handle 7000k RPM, idling against that spring load is going to make lifter lubrication a concern.

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Post  nuclearcobra on December 19th 2013, 5:36 pm

Flat tappets are fine , and if anybody complains about all the extra "work" on break in your just lazy that's all , if that's really a bother , then why ya messin with motors anyway , and vr1 is just fine , no need for any exotic special expensive oils. But hey opinions are like ". " we'll ya know.
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Post  maverick on December 19th 2013, 5:37 pm

I don't have a dog in this fight, but if you do a bit of research, you'll find that Mobil 1 15W50 has a ton of zinc in it compared to other off the shelf stuff. Just sayin...
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Post  nuclearcobra on December 19th 2013, 5:59 pm

Good to know , thanks.
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