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Re: forged crank

Post  rmcomprandy on January 20th 2015, 10:28 am

72mach1 wrote:Thanks for all the info, I know a offshore forged crank can be a sore subject, but from what I have been told is that there is no American company that sells an American made forged crank unless you step up to a billet. Is this correct or have I been misled? A billet is way overkill that why I asked specifically about offshore forged stuff.

TRUE ... though some raw forgings are machined in the USA.

For that much power an offset ground OEM crank, (Chrysler journal size with large filet radiuses and 440 H-beam rods), or a cast steel/nodular iron aftermarket crankshaft would easily be strong enough.
SO.  almost ANY forged crank is somewhat overbuilding for that horsepower number.

EDIT:  That Mopar journal is a very common build-up for 480 cubic inch class pulling engines making much more power than that.


Last edited by rmcomprandy on January 20th 2015, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: forged crank

Post  kjett on January 20th 2015, 10:39 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
72mach1 wrote:Thanks for all the info, I know a offshore forged crank can be a sore subject, but from what I have been told is that there is no American company that sells an American made forged crank unless you step up to a billet. Is this correct or have I been misled? A billet is way overkill that why I asked specifically about offshore forged stuff.

TRUE ... though some raw forgings are machined in the USA.

For that much power and offset ground OEM crank, (Chrysler journal size with large filet radiuses and 440 H-beam rods), or a cast steel/nodular iron aftermarket crankshaft would easily be strong enough.
SO.  almost ANY forged crank is somewhat overbuilding for that horsepower number.

EDIT:  That is a very common build-up for a 480 cubic inch class pulling engine.

I'm running that exact setup now with a set of basically out of the box A heads and 3.975 stroke stock crank. I'm looking to gather parts to go up in ci for the next build, and without going to a billet, can you answer why the common 4340 cranks have that separation on pricing?
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Re: forged crank

Post  68formalGT on January 20th 2015, 11:14 am

Paul Kane wrote:For anyone who is unfamiliar, the Japanese take their steel very seriously and it is usually high grade stuff.

You can say that again Paul, I work at a rail mill and they are a major competitor with us, in fact the machine that makes our premium rail came from Japan. I think our product is better but they are definitely passionate about their product.
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Re: forged crank

Post  68formalGT on January 20th 2015, 11:29 am

kjett wrote:opening this thread back up for more questions. If the offshore forgings are all about the same, why is it the Lunati, Ohio, and Eagle 4340 4.5 cranks sell for around $700-800, while the Scat sells for $1100-1500? Is there really a difference with the Scat that makes it worth more? Looking at the "you get what you pay for" thought process.

X2
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Re: forged crank

Post  460pulling on January 20th 2015, 11:30 am

kjett wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
72mach1 wrote:Thanks for all the info, I know a offshore forged crank can be a sore subject, but from what I have been told is that there is no American company that sells an American made forged crank unless you step up to a billet. Is this correct or have I been misled? A billet is way overkill that why I asked specifically about offshore forged stuff.

TRUE ... though some raw forgings are machined in the USA.

For that much power and offset ground OEM crank, (Chrysler journal size with large filet radiuses and 440 H-beam rods), or a cast steel/nodular iron aftermarket crankshaft would easily be strong enough.
SO.  almost ANY forged crank is somewhat overbuilding for that horsepower number.

EDIT:  That is a very common build-up for a 480 cubic inch class pulling engine.

I'm running that exact setup now with a set of basically out of the box A heads and 3.975 stroke stock crank. I'm looking to gather parts to go up in ci for the next build, and without going to a billet, can you answer why the common 4340 cranks have that separation on pricing?

Karl I have 1 of the Lunati cranks and we compared on looks and dimensions of a Scat sitting directly beside it and they were both spot on. There was an eagle crank there as well and it measured right but did not have the same look and feel. The Callies was even nicer looking and had a very nice finish. As far as the pricing I think if I had the money I would be looking at the Callies if I had less money I would go with a Lunati, but this is my Opinion.

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Re: forged crank

Post  kjett on January 20th 2015, 11:50 am

Jessie,

I have the money, that's not the issue. The part I'm confused about is why SCAT (and Callies for that matter) seems to price their product so much higher than the other offshore crank suppliers. Is there something different in the forging/finish that makes them that much more superior or is it based on the name? For example, if I can get a Lunati 4340 crank for $790 vs. the SCAT at $1118 from a box store (pricing from Scummit just for comparison), I can use that extra $328 to put towards something else instead of paying for a name. If its because it's a better product, I'd be more willing to pony up the extra $$. Personally, I prefer to deal with people like Lem, Randy, or Adney simply because of the the follow up customer support, but even they have similar increases in costs for those manufacturer's. Just trying to get a reasoning for the increase.
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Re: forged crank

Post  460pulling on January 20th 2015, 12:02 pm

I see what your saying. I couldn't find a reason and I searched a good while before i purchased my Lunati crank. Maybe someone else will have some comments between the two. I went for the money savings and put that into my A460 block purchase.

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Re: forged crank

Post  Lem Evans on January 20th 2015, 12:04 pm

Relative to the 'off-shore' cranks, I'm mostly using/selling the Lunati units now. The finish work is as good as ,if not better, than the Scat and has lower price point.

The Callies forgings are USA and have a higher price point.

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Re: forged crank

Post  kjett on January 20th 2015, 12:09 pm

Lem Evans wrote:Relative to the 'off-shore' cranks, I'm mostly using/selling the Lunati units now. The finish work is as good as ,if not better, than the Scat and has lower price point.

The Callies forgings are USA and have a higher price point.

That's the answer I'm looking for. As soon as I discuss what stroke with my engine builder, you'll be getting a call. Thanks Lem!!
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Re: forged crank

Post  rmcomprandy on January 20th 2015, 8:19 pm

kjett wrote:Jessie,

I have the money, that's not the issue. The part I'm confused about is why SCAT (and Callies for that matter) seems to price their product so much higher than the other offshore crank suppliers. Is there something different in the forging/finish that makes them that much more superior or is it based on the name? For example, if I can get a Lunati 4340 crank for $790 vs. the SCAT at $1118 from a box store (pricing from Scummit just for comparison), I can use that extra $328 to put towards something else instead of paying for a name. If its because it's a better product, I'd be more willing to pony up the extra $$. Personally, I prefer to deal with people like Lem, Randy, or Adney simply because of the the follow up customer support, but even they have similar increases in costs for those manufacturer's. Just trying to get a reasoning for the increase.

ADNEY sells the SCAT cranks for $995.00 ... people should quit going online to just buy stuff from salesmen and actually talk with people in the engine building industry.

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Re: forged crank

Post  kjett on January 20th 2015, 9:16 pm

Randy,

While I respect your input and knowledge, you haven't answered the original question. And stating that Adney sells the Scat for $995 doesn't prove anything either. I used Scummit pricing as a quick available price reference, not the best deal. I even said I prefer to contact people like you, Lem, and Adney for the knowledge and follow on support. Heck I've even talked to the tech reps at Scat, Eagle, and Lunati asking about the pricing. None will answer, so since you are so in the know in the engine building world, oh wise one, please enlighten us trivial peons with what makes Scat and Callie's 4340 forgings so much superior over the other offshore crank suppliers/manufacturers to cause the significant price difference. It's not like the ProComp electronics vs MSD, so what is it?
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Re: forged crank

Post  dfree383 on January 20th 2015, 10:21 pm

Why do different brands of Potato chips cost different? They are all made from potatoes right?

Not all forging, metal and machining are equal, in most cases you get what you pay for, you want a 4340 with a wide spec and quality get the ones of Chinese origin, you want one with a real QA and QC program and known certified material get a Japanese, euro or American one..... But the quality ain't free.
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Re: forged crank

Post  kjett on January 20th 2015, 10:42 pm

dfree383 wrote:Why do different brands of Potato chips cost different? They are all made from potatoes right?

They are made from potatoes. But there's not over a $300 difference between the brands. A $1 difference is a long way from the drastic difference from Scat to Lunati or Ohio or Eagle. Are the cheaper 2 really that horrible that they drop their price to make a sale? Or is Scat and Callie's so full of themselves they believe their product is superior? You guys are missing the point. As the novice out to get the best bang for the buck, all we have it what we read on the vendors websites and prices that are publicized along with the occasional horror story with this brand or that. We have a head pecking order that is backed and agreed upon by the guru's here but nobody ever wants to speak up about other parts, good or bad until after someone buys something and it destroys the rest of the components. Then we get the obligatory "you shoulda called me" post.
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Re: forged crank

Post  dfree383 on January 20th 2015, 11:10 pm

kjett wrote:
dfree383 wrote:Why do different brands of Potato chips cost different? They are all made from potatoes right?

They are made from potatoes. But there's not over a $300 difference between the brands. A $1 difference is a long way from the drastic difference from Scat to Lunati or Ohio or Eagle. Are the cheaper 2 really that horrible that they drop their price to make a sale? Or is Scat and Callie's so full of themselves they believe their product is superior? You guys are missing the point. As the novice out to get the best bang for the buck, all we have it what we read on the vendors websites and prices that are publicized along with the occasional horror story with this brand or that. We have a head pecking order that is backed and agreed upon by the guru's here but nobody ever wants to speak up about other parts, good or bad until after someone buys something and it destroys the rest of the components. Then we get the obligatory "you shoulda called me" post.

Your missing the point, they are not all equal.... Its been hashed out many times. And yes their is $300+ differences in quality work and materials.





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Re: forged crank

Post  rmcomprandy on January 21st 2015, 12:29 am

dfree383 wrote:

Your missing the point, they are not all equal....  Its been hashed out many times. And yes their is $300+ differences in quality work and materials.


EXACTLY ... kjett seems to be hung-up on that 300 dollar amount.
So,
Why does a Smith & Wesson 357 revolver cost $300.00 more than a Charter Arms 357 revolver which looks the same.
They both are made from supposedly the same steel and BOTH manufactured in the USA.

And, that $300.00 between those pistols is much more of a percentage difference than the crankshafts.

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Re: forged crank

Post  460pulling on January 21st 2015, 1:01 am

Honestly has anyone on here seen a scat or lunati 4340 forged crank to be the cause of the engine failure in a bbf? I also want to know how anyone really knows between the lunati and scat which steel is better or vice versa?


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Re: forged crank

Post  Paul Kane on January 21st 2015, 1:56 am

460pulling wrote:Honestly....I...want to know how anyone really knows between the lunati and scat which steel is better or vice versa?

The 385 Series Lunati and Scat forged crankshafts are both made from the same raw forgings, they are machined under the same roof at the Scat facility in southern California, and probably by the exact same machines.  The only difference between the two brands is that the raw forgings machined for Lunati are machined to Lunati's private label specifications and then placed into a Lunati box while at the Scat facility instead of a Scat box like the Scat cranks.

So...why does the Scat crankshaft cost more than the Lunati crankshaft? My guess would be that Scat is carrying the majority of the manufacturing overhead.  Idea
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Re: forged crank

Post  kjett on January 21st 2015, 8:52 am

460pulling wrote:Honestly has anyone on here seen a scat or lunati 4340 forged crank to be the cause of the engine failure in a bbf? I also want to know how anyone really knows between the lunati and scat which steel is better or vice versa?


That was the road I was hoping to go down. I know a Callies crank is much better quality due to Japanese steel and better QC, and why I didn't really bring it into the equation. I was mainly looking at the Chinese forgings and which seemed to have the better steel and machining process. It seems some of the builders are leaning toward the Lunati over the Scat in mid hp builds. So to someone looking to get the best bang for the buck, that speaks volumes and presents the questions to the rest of us as to why do we need to spend that extra money on a name where something with as good or better can be had for a lower pricepoint.
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Re: forged crank

Post  cool40 on January 21st 2015, 10:51 am

Have you priced a crower or bryant ? They are about double the scat.
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Re: forged crank

Post  kjett on January 21st 2015, 12:14 pm

cool40 wrote:Have you priced a crower or bryant ? They are about double the scat.

billet vs forged. Apples vs oranges debate. Billet is know to cost more simply due to the machining time to carve a crank out of a hunk of steel. It's almost like comparing the Callies crank to the Eagle. Callies uses better quality Japanese steel where the Eagle (and Lunati, and Scat, and Ohio) use Chinese steel which is all over the place on quality and material mixture. Thos 2 forged cranks are in different classes and one would expect the Callies to cost more. Paul brought up a good insight as to the Lunati vs Scat with them being machined at Scat so they bear more of the brunt with the machining costs. It's funny considering when I called Lunati about this, the sales/tech rep on the phone said Lunati machines their blanks in house and last I knew they were in MS not CA. Just shows that you can never get a straight answer to simple questions.
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Re: forged crank

Post  cool40 on January 21st 2015, 3:01 pm

kjett wrote:
cool40 wrote:Have you priced a crower or bryant ? They are about double the scat.

billet vs forged. Apples vs oranges debate. Billet is know to cost more simply due to the machining time to carve a crank out of a hunk of steel. It's almost like comparing the Callies crank to the Eagle. Callies uses better quality Japanese steel where the Eagle (and Lunati, and Scat, and Ohio) use Chinese steel which is all over the place on quality and material mixture. Thos 2 forged cranks are in different classes and one would expect the Callies to cost more. Paul brought up a good insight as to the Lunati vs Scat with them being machined at Scat so they bear more of the brunt with the machining costs. It's funny considering when I called Lunati about this, the sales/tech rep on the phone said Lunati machines their blanks in house and last I knew they were in MS not CA. Just shows that you can never get a straight answer to simple questions.
I paid $1800 for a bryant 8 yrs ago. I've bought another one since then but can't recall the price because it was one big bill, lol. A billet crank is much more than the forged I have and no need for it unless you can't get it forged.
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