CR drop via head swap

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CR drop via head swap

Post  7LBRONCO on January 20th 2014, 10:47 pm

I am currently running a stock 70 429 TJet in my Bronco. It runs hotter than I like, even with the largest OE radiator. I run 91 octane, with octane booster and lead substitute. I would like to get this motor to run on "beer" (87 oct), instead of cocktails. Normal operating elevation is 7-8K'. How much compression drop would a set of uncut D3 heads give me versus the D0VE heads? Not having to add lead substitute to each tank is also a plus.

I know the 429 is OE, cause I got it from the original owner with 49K miles on it.

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  maverick on January 20th 2014, 11:09 pm

It shouldn't run too hot...as long as your tune and cooling system are right.  What thermostat, fan and shroud arrangement do you have?  Also, incorrect ignition timing can cause cooling problems.  By the way, how hot is "hotter than I like"...and does it remain at a fairly constant temp, or does it overheat?

87 octane may be a stretch regardless of tune, tho. '70 era stuff used a bit more compression than 87 will normally support. You're probably right in wanting to lower the squeeze if you're dead set on using the cheap stuff.


Last edited by maverick on January 20th 2014, 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  supervel45 on January 20th 2014, 11:11 pm

Keep in mind that your short block is probably 10.3" deck height, and 1973 blocks where 10.32" to lower compression. The pistons on the later engine's have more dish also I believe. My 1971 429 has the dished pistons. If you have 2 valve relief flat tops 9 to 1 compression ballpark is my estimate. Anyway I think you can get by with 87 octane.  

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  supervel45 on January 20th 2014, 11:26 pm

Identification data


Ford Galaxie 500 4-door Pillared Hardtop 429 V-8 4V Cruise-O-Matic
as offered for the year 1973 until September in North America U.S.
Production/sales period of cars with this particular specs:
September 1972 - September 1973

Modelyears:
1973




Country of origin:
USA






Make:
Ford (USA)

Model:
Full-Size 8th generation


1969-1974

Submodel:
Galaxie 500 4-Door Sedan


1969-1974

Optional equipment:


EEC segmentation:
E (executive cars)

Class:
full-size / executive car

Body style:
sedan

Doors:
4

Traction:
RWD (rear-wheel drive)




Dimensions & capacities


Length:
5575 mm / 219.5 in

Width:
2019 mm / 79.5 in

Height:
1397 mm / 55 in

Wheelbase:
3073 mm / 121 in

Front track:
1628 mm / 64.1 in

Rear track:
1633 mm / 64.3 in

Ground clearance:
130 mm / 5.1 in







Turning circle btw. walls:


Turning circle btw. curbs:


Drag coefficient claimed:


Drag coefficient estimated by a-c:
0.53







Legroom:


1st row:


2nd row:


3rd row:


Shoulder room:


1st row:


2nd row:


3rd row:


Headroom:


1st row:


2nd row:


3rd row:


Hiproom:


1st row:


2nd row:


Claimed EPA passenger volume:


Calculated EPA passenger volume:








Interior length:


Interior width:


Interior height:


Trunk (cargo) capacity claimed:





Trunk (cargo) capacity SAE:
484 / / dm3


17.1 / / cu ft

Trunk (cargo) capacity VDA:





Boot length:


Boot length max.:


Boot width:


Boot width min. (between wheel arches):


Boot height:


Loading height:








Approach angle (deg):


Departure angle (deg):


Ramp angle (deg):




Weights


Curb weight (without a driver):
2018 kg / 4449 lbs

Weight distribution f/r (%):


Dry weight:


Shipping weight:


Curb weight estimated:


Gross vehicle weight rating GVWR:


Payload:


Payload estimated:





Towing weight:


unbraked:


braked:





Sales markets



Markets, where cars with this particular specifications were sold:

North America


U.S.


Related models:







Powertrain


Engine manufacturer:
Ford 385-series V-8 429

Engine type:
spark-ignition 4-stroke

Fuel type:
petrol (gasoline)

Fuel system:
carburetor

Charge system:
naturally aspirated

Valves per cylinder:
2

Valves timing:


Additional features:
Motorcraft 4-barrel







Emission control:


Emission standard:








Cylinders alignment:
V 8

Displacement:
7033 cm3 / 429.2 cui

Bore:
110.79 mm / 4.362 in

Stroke:
91.19 mm / 3.59 in

Compression ratio:
8 : 1

Power net:
150.5 kW / 205 PS / 202 hp (SAE net)


/ 4400

Torque:
434 Nm / 320 ft-lb


/ 2800

Power gross:





Torque gross:





Redline rpm:








Fuel capacity:
83 liter / 21.9 U.S. gal / 18.2 imp. gal



Drivetrain


Gearbox:
Ford C6

Transmission type:
automatic







Number of gears:
3

Gear ratios (overall):


I
2.46 (6.77)

II
1.46 (4.02)

III
1 (2.75)

IV
()

V
()

VI
()

VII
()

VIII
()

R
2.175

Speed range


(max speed on gears,


top gear value theor.):
(km/h/mph)

I:
96 / 60

II:
162 / 101

III:
237 / 147

IV:
/

V:
/

VI:
/

VII:
/

VIII:
/

1000rpm speed:
(km/h/mph)

I:
20.1 / 12.5

II:
33.9 / 21.1

III:
49.4 / 30.7

IV:
/

V:
/

VI:
/

VII:
/

VIII:
/

Torque converter factor:
2.05

Final drive ratio std:
2.75

optional:
3


3.25













Front brakes:





Rear brakes:








Standard tires:
H78 - 15







Check 1973 Ford Galaxie 500 4-door Pillared Hardtop 429 V-8 4V Cruise-O-Matic alternate wheel and tire sizes ...



I could not get the link to work. This spec. sheet shows the factory compression of a 1973 4294v which should have your D3 heads.


Last edited by supervel45 on January 20th 2014, 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  kim on January 20th 2014, 11:33 pm

Running hot, too little radiator, old plugged radiator, crappy fan, and or failed fan clutch if mechanical, no thermostat or thermostat unable to open fully. 9-1 compression at that altitude, should be able to run 85 octain. (NM and El Paso TX, as well as in Mexico)

Lack of timing also causes poor burn, so instead of making HP, all you do is make heat down the cylinder.

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  7LBRONCO on January 20th 2014, 11:43 pm

I am on my third radiator, trying to get the temps to stabilize around 180-190. Right now I am using an extra super cool radiator, which is THE biggest radiator that Ford produced for 78-9 F350 trucks. 1970 T Bird clutch fan, OE radiator shroud. This radiator dropped my temps down 5-10 degrees, compared to a new Champion 3 core. Currently, operating temp is 200 + going down the highway, or in town. I attribute this to high CR and lousy fuel. When this engine was new, regular was 91 octane, and this was a premium fuel engine! I have tried timing changes from 0 to 12 before. The more I back it off, the warmer it runs. Even sitting idling, it will run 200+ on my mechanical gauge.

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  supervel45 on January 20th 2014, 11:54 pm

Is it a 4 row radiator? My Modine super duty radiator in my 1978 F150 is 4 rows and I have seem the big top tank radiators that look just like mine with 3 rows. I am wondering if the octane booster and lead additives are raising the temp?

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  strokedmyford on January 21st 2014, 12:28 am

Is the plate between the water pump and front cover there.
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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  7LBRONCO on January 21st 2014, 12:50 am

The radiator is a 3 core. Ford never put a 4 core in this series of trucks. I know this size radiator will cool a big block, so that is not the issue.

When I got this engine, it was still pushing a 70 T Bird around. Still had the OE water pump, which I had to replace about 4 years ago, due to a dripping seal, so if it had a plate then, it has one now.

The published comp ratio is 10.5 +, depending on your source, and that indicates to me something higher than 91 octane, which is all I can buy around here. Tried going to the airport for some avgas, but they won't sell it to me. Just wanted to see if some REAL gasoline would make a difference.

I used an infrared temp gun on the T stat housing, and it showed 180-190, which is cooler than the water temps in the radiator. I have tried from 160-190 degree T stats, with no difference. I still have the original 190 stat, with the Ford oval stamped on it.

Bad fan clutch would make little or no difference at highway speeds, but I have checked mine. You can hear the difference, when the engine is revved up.

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  strokedmyford on January 21st 2014, 1:01 am

A big block replacement water pump never comes with the plate like the small blocks do. Sometimes it sticks to the old water pump and doesn't get cleaned and transfered. Seen it happen more than once, you should see it in there without disassembly.
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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  7LBRONCO on January 21st 2014, 1:07 am

I know the plate is not on the original pump, cause I still have it sitting in a shelf. Will Look tomorrow, AFTER the temp gets above 0.

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  res0rli9 on January 21st 2014, 1:17 am

7LBRONCO wrote:I know the plate is not on the original pump, cause I still have it sitting in a shelf.  Will Look tomorrow, AFTER the temp gets above 0.

If its that Cold there you don't even need a radiator. affraid 

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  7LBRONCO on January 21st 2014, 1:22 am

Supposed to get down to -6 tonight. Better than the -20 we usually have this time of year!!!

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Do you have a fan shroud?

Post  manofmerc on January 21st 2014, 6:38 am

In your postings I didnt see mention of a fan shroud .No doubt you have a sufficent radiator .And yes a fan clutch doest do much at highway speeds but you need all the help you can get .If you dont have a fan shroud get one it makes the fan more efficent .And find yourself a heavy duty fan clutch .And if you have a big flex fan handy try that.I would rather see you try out a better fan clutch first .Even with crappy gas and somewhat high compression you should be able to cool your truck to 190 going down the highway.Most guys on this forum have engines with more power and compression than you .In cars with much smaller engine compartments with smaller radiators .And are the water pump pulleys factory original or and aftermarket underdrive .Water pump speed maters also .Good luck you will find your problem Doug

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  supervel45 on January 21st 2014, 1:48 pm

Did the later 460's go to a revese flow water pump for serpertine belt system? Could some one mistakingly grabbed the wrong part, and it was not noticed? Question  And by the way I went and counted the row's in my Modine radiator, and there are four (4). It was listed for a 1973-79 Ford truck. Autozone ect. does not carry them either. I had to order it from a Modine distributor.

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  jeffgfg on January 21st 2014, 2:38 pm

There has never been a reversed flow water pump for a 460, even the serpentine trucks the pump turned normal rotation. Unless I'm wrong!!!

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  supervel45 on January 21st 2014, 3:01 pm

SVO 1995 Catolog page 25 on the 460 CJ footnotes says otherwise. It says the water pump must be changed to convert to V-belts from Serpentine, on the crate engine. I would think this applies to the stockers as well. I believe most serpentine belt set-ups are reverse rotation, because of how the belt treads over the pulley. I am not saying this is the OP's problem, just  something for him to double check.http://local.aaca.org/harford/07sept345.pdf As for as factory setups looks like your correct. The older SVO crate engine's used available parts, and apparantly the water pump pulley holes are different than the V pulleys.


Last edited by supervel45 on January 21st 2014, 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  strokedmyford on January 21st 2014, 5:50 pm

The water pumps turn the same direction on the serpentine systems (grooved pulley not smooth), the water pumps are different but the only thing I can tell is that it uses larger bearings and has extra mounting bosses.
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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  maverick on January 21st 2014, 5:51 pm

If you're still interested in a bit of avgas, small airports will pump it into a can or fuel jug, but they will not pump it into your car.
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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  supervel45 on January 21st 2014, 6:00 pm

strokedmyford wrote:The water pumps turn the same direction on the serpentine systems (grooved pulley not smooth), the water pumps are different but the only thing I can tell is that it uses larger bearings and has extra mounting bosses.
I edited my above statement. The 302/351w is reverse rotation, and is so stated in the footnotes of the SVO catolog. The 460 just says the waterpump must be replaced for V-belts. They do make a couple of aftermarket reverse pumps for custom belt setups though. The bolt holes for the pulley was mentioned on another thread.

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  7LBRONCO on January 21st 2014, 8:12 pm

maverick wrote:If you're still interested in a bit of avgas, small airports will pump it into a can or fuel jug, but they will not pump it into your car.


I tried our small airport. No Sale, even in a gas can.

If I did have a reverse flow water pump, I believe the temp issue would be more severe. When I replaced the OE pump, operating temps stayed the same.

I really appreciate everyone's input. This spring I am going to swap my D0VE heads for a good pair of D3s that I have. Just need to upgrade the springs to handle a .500 lift cam.

Just curious, is the Large web D0VE block worth more than a standard web block. I know my block is the large web, from changing to a rear sump pan and oil pump.

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  maverick on January 21st 2014, 8:17 pm

[quote="7LBRONCO"]
maverick wrote:If you're still interested in a bit of avgas, small airports will pump it into a can or fuel jug, but they will not pump it into your car.


I tried our small airport.  No Sale, even in a gas can.

Not even for the old Luscombe you've been restoring in your garage?

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  supervel45 on January 21st 2014, 8:41 pm

As for as your thick web D0VE block, it would be worth more to me if I was block shopping. Not as much as a 4 bolt SCJ block, but more none the less. As far as the reverse flow water pump, not very likely, as it does look like they are speciality after market deals, for true single serpentine belt conversions. I take it that you are running hot in winter contitions, which seemed odd. If it was Texas 100 degree heat the 200 would not be out of the ordinary, but you said Colardo and I assume winter temps? I still suspect the additives may have something to do with your heating problem. I hope you get it sorted out.

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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  cool40 on January 21st 2014, 9:33 pm

7LBRONCO wrote:I am currently running a stock 70 429 TJet in my Bronco.  It runs hotter than I like, even with the largest OE radiator.  I run 91 octane, with octane booster and lead substitute.  I would like to get this motor to run on "beer" (87 oct), instead of cocktails.  Normal operating elevation is 7-8K'.  How much compression drop would a set of uncut D3 heads give me versus the D0VE heads?  Not having to add lead substitute to each tank is also a plus.

I know the 429 is OE, cause I got it from the original owner with 49K miles on it.
what sort of carb you have on it? a long long time ago i had a 70 model 460 i had trouble cooling.i did evrything to help it,even a custom built 4 core radiator.it would idle and not overheat but would get 210-220* down the road.i bought a new 850 dp for it and fixed my cooling problems.i always knew the 600 was too small but couldn't stand to buy more gas for it at the time.
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Re: CR drop via head swap

Post  7LBRONCO on January 21st 2014, 10:51 pm

I am running a 670 TA Holley carb, with 1" phenolic spacer on the stock iron intake. At this altitude, it is actually running a little rich.

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