Roller lifters and rockers

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Roller lifters and rockers

Post  85lebaront2 on March 8th 2014, 11:56 am

The gentleman who is going to help me with the .040 build for my truck feels we should use a roller cam and lifter setup. I know Ford never built a roller 460, but, has anyone tried using the small block lifters (bore size is the same) in a 460? I know it will probably take custom push rods due to the lifter difference.

Second part, does anyone know if roller rockers are available that will clear the EFI cast aluminum valve covers? Alternatively, are there any aftermarket "tall" valve covers for the EFI heads?

Thanks!
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  rmcomprandy on March 8th 2014, 12:32 pm

85lebaront2 wrote:The gentleman who is going to help me with the .040 build for my truck feels we should use a roller cam and lifter setup. I know Ford never built a roller 460, but, has anyone tried using the small block lifters (bore size is the same) in a 460? I know it will probably take custom push rods due to the lifter difference.

Second part, does anyone know if roller rockers are available that will clear the EFI cast aluminum valve covers? Alternatively, are there any aftermarket "tall" valve covers for the EFI heads?

Thanks!

The lifter will fit the lifter bores but, you never mentioned HYDRAULIC or SOLID.

Presuming you are meaning hydraulic:
If the gentleman who is helping you says that, then surely make him responsible for performing the modifications necessary to make it all work even half way decent.

There are several "bolt down" pedestal type roller rockers which will fit.


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Roller lifters and rockers

Post  85lebaront2 on March 8th 2014, 1:07 pm

Sorry, I should have specified hydraulic. I know we will have to do some modifications and he has a pretty well equipt machine shop as he built marine engines for years and actually has several perfect standard 460 cranks.

On the rockers, any recommended brands/sources for them? He has a good number of wholesale accounts with suppliers.

Thanks again!
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  dfree383 on March 8th 2014, 3:06 pm

Their are aftermarket link bar hydraulic roller lifters avaliable for a 460, I'd use a set of those before I'd use factory small block rollers.
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Roller lifters and rockers

Post  85lebaront2 on March 8th 2014, 3:38 pm

I had found the aftermarket ones, roughly $1000 a set. What is wrong with using the small block lifters? Bore spacing would be the only issue I can think of, because the flat tappet ones are all the same number. Bad thing about it, if it weren't for Chevy's smaller lifters, he (the friend) has a brand new set of aftermarket tie bar lifters from his 454, he elected to use stock Chevy lifters in it.
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  the Coug on March 8th 2014, 6:04 pm

with you and your friend wanting to Bastardize everything why not just have him build you a chevy...... you don't seem to want to buy things for the 460 anyways so if I were you I would sell the ford stuff to someone that will use it and GO Chevy.... but then again that might not be Cheap enough for you either they cost money to build also... maybe a Toyota or a Kia I know you should get a Geo Metro that's a good one for you.....
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  85lebaront2 on March 8th 2014, 9:17 pm

the Coug wrote:with you and your friend wanting to Bastardize everything why not just have him build you a chevy...... you don't seem to want to buy things for the 460 anyways so if I were you I would sell the ford stuff to someone that will use it and GO Chevy.... but then again that might not be Cheap enough for you either they cost money to build also... maybe a Toyota or a Kia  I know you should get a Geo Metro that's a good one for you.....

Well, I was actually looking for some concrete advice, not a bunch of crap from whoever you are. One of the reasons I was asking, everything you find aftermarket is aimed at carbureted engines, or bolt on EFI systems that use a Chevy distributor. If I wanted a Chevy, I would buy one. The guy who will be doing the machine work, blueprinting and balancing told me flat out that he figures my engine will kill his 454 in the performance area, he would just love to be able to drop a 460 in his 2500 HD 4WD.`BTW, he made his living for 40 years doing marine engines.
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  Dave C. on March 8th 2014, 9:33 pm

Bill,you just passed the thick skin test... Congrats.

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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  richter69 on March 8th 2014, 9:36 pm

Coug eats everybodys ass out on the internet........
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  supervel45 on March 8th 2014, 9:50 pm

dfree383 wrote:Their are aftermarket link bar hydraulic roller lifters avaliable for a 460, I'd use a set of those before I'd use factory small block rollers.
I looked around, and some of the 351C guys experimented with the Oem stuff, but there is no info I could find for the 460 or anykind of retrofit kits available, that are made for this. If Ford SVO, FMPP, ect. did not bother with it, I would "Assume" it is not a very good idea? I am not saying it can't be done, just that it may not be too practical. If it is not going to be a daily driver, you might want to consider a mechanical cam, of stay with a HFT. You did not give too much information on your build either, so that also makes it harder to know what might be a better solution, to your needs. If you would like a link to the 351C article let me know, but like I said, it does not go into the 460 angle, just the problems they encountered in the conversion. Roller cams are nice, but they have never been cheap, especially if the engine was not factory equiped with one to start with.

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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  cool40 on March 8th 2014, 9:53 pm

Dave C. wrote:Bill,you just passed the thick skin test... Congrats.
 Laughing the "test" makes a lot of lookers affraid to ask questions.
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  supervel45 on March 8th 2014, 9:57 pm

WoW Cool, something we actually agree on. Shocked 

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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  cool40 on March 8th 2014, 10:12 pm

supervel45 wrote:WoW Cool, something we actually agree on. Shocked 
 affraid 
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  dfree383 on March 8th 2014, 10:14 pm

85lebaront2 wrote:I had found the aftermarket ones, roughly $1000 a set. What is wrong with using the small block lifters? Bore spacing would be the only issue I can think of, because the flat tappet ones are all the same number. Bad thing about it, if it weren't for Chevy's smaller lifters, he (the friend) has a brand new set of aftermarket tie bar lifters from his 454, he elected to use stock Chevy lifters in it.

You not looking in the right places, they are not $1000
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  85lebaront2 on March 8th 2014, 10:17 pm

richter69 wrote:Coug eats everybodys ass out on the internet........

I bite back and I haven't had a rabies shot in years.
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  85lebaront2 on March 8th 2014, 10:33 pm

supervel45 wrote:
dfree383 wrote:Their are aftermarket link bar hydraulic roller lifters avaliable for a 460, I'd use a set of those before I'd use factory small block rollers.
                                                                                                                                       I looked around, and some of the 351C guys experimented with the Oem stuff, but there is no info I could find for the 460 or anykind of retrofit kits available, that are made for this. If Ford SVO, FMPP, ect. did not bother with it, I would "Assume" it is not a very good idea? I am not saying it can't be done, just that it may not be too practical. If it is not going to be a daily driver, you might want to consider a mechanical cam, of stay with a HFT. You did not give too much information on your build either, so that also makes it harder to know what might be a better solution, to your needs. If you would like a link to the 351C article let me know, but like I said, it does not go into the 460 angle, just the problems they encountered in the conversion. Roller cams are nice, but they have never been cheap, especially if the engine was not factory equiped with one to start with.  

The build is for my 1986 F-350 CC/DRW pickup converted the MAF/SEFI. I am looking for a torque cam. Roller valve train was suggested as a reduce friction, increase longevity and a slight HP gain due to lower rotational resistance. It won't be a daily driver (too expensive to run for that) but will usually be a highway run when driven. Two reasons for the latter, I live on Virginia's Eastern Shore, anything you want you pretty well have a 1 1/2 hour drive each way, either to Virginia Beach or Salisbury MD. One of the things we will be doing is going up to Princess Anne MD to the Sysco cash and carry store with either a large marine ice chest or a small chest freezer an a 4K genset in the bed. The other thing it has always been is my hauler for pretty well any size trailer.
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  supervel45 on March 9th 2014, 1:01 am

I will give you my honest view, from my experience with a 429 in a P/U. I would not go Hyd. Roller, as I don't feel it is not worth the money in this appliciation. I would stick with a FTH, but again that is just my view. After looking into the matter for my engine/truck I want nothing to do with a hyd. roller BBF. If it where a SBF, it would be a totally opposite story.

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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  rmcomprandy on March 9th 2014, 1:15 am

supervel45 wrote: I will give you my honest view, from my experience with a 429 in a P/U. I would not go Hyd. Roller, as I don't feel it is not worth the money in this appliciation. I would stick with a FTH, but again that is just my view. After looking into the matter for my engine/truck I want nothing to do with a hyd. roller BBF. If it where a SBF, it would be a totally opposite story.

X2, YES ... it is also my opinion that a hydraulic flat tappet "custom" grind will supply everything you are after without the grief involved with trying to convert to factory small block hydraulic roller lifters.

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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  supervel45 on March 9th 2014, 1:59 am

85lebaront2 wrote:Sorry, I should have specified hydraulic. I know we will have to do some modifications and he has a pretty well equipt machine shop as he built marine engines for years and actually has several perfect standard 460 cranks.

On the rockers, any recommended brands/sources for them? He has a good number of wholesale accounts with suppliers.

Thanks again!
This is what I found when I was searching for mine, which are the bolt down style. You will have to ask if he will still make you a set? http://www.rmcompetition.com/rocker-arms-.html

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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  85lebaront2 on March 9th 2014, 8:01 am

Ok guys, thanks. I will pass this information on to him when I go back up to help him finish his SEFI 454 conversion on a 1995 K2500 originally a TBI system. That's how I met him, I was referred to him to help rewire his front harnesses for SEFI.
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  supervel45 on March 9th 2014, 8:11 am

Here some decent Ford EFI info I came across, More fohttp://webpages.charter.net/darrell1/mustang_efi.htmlr SB's but some of it may help with the 460 MAF.

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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  supervel45 on March 9th 2014, 8:13 am


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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  85lebaront2 on March 9th 2014, 9:05 am

It helps some, but not much. The 460/E4OD setup is way different from the Mustang 302 setup. I am actually running an EEC-V system using a modified CA spec FEZ3 calibration (eliminated the misfire detector, changed EGR to sonic (EVP sensor), no air pump, no cat monitor as there is no cat. I do have the stereo O2 sensors and am using the stock single location for an Innovate LM-1 system. Worst part of the conversion was the air inlet system. I had to fabricate the whole thing there are pictures under the EFI thread, CA spec 460s are as common as hens teeth on the East coast.

While I am on that subject, if anyone on here is dismantling a CA spec 460 with the misfire detector and isn't going to use it, I am trying to find the trigger wheel for one. It is part of the "hatchet" external counterweight. I would also like to find an air inlet duct and possibly timing cover from one of these 1996/7 trucks. The misfire stuff may also be on the E series vans, the air duct would be completely different.
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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  supervel45 on March 9th 2014, 9:44 am

I was not sure which ECM you where using. It looks like a few people have experimented with some of the other non 460 ECM's on these projects. It looks like the 24lb injectors are good to about 380 HP, which is nice. A few people tried the old Vortec superchargers, which was the idea I liked, but the results are not that impressive, it sounds. I see one Competion Cams Computor grind that a few people seemed to like, but I did not get the part#, but I think it was 255 for adv. duration. You did not mention if you wanted to stay with fuelie heads. This is the problem, when it comes to making much gain in HP, but they do make good low end torque. A 521-545 shortblock, with some decent flowing heads is another idea. If you skipped the aftermarket hyd. roller cam, and all the related parts, and the roller rockers as well, you proprably would have enough money for a stroker kit.

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Re: Roller lifters and rockers

Post  85lebaront2 on March 9th 2014, 10:53 am

supervel45 wrote:I was not sure which ECM you where using. It looks like a few people have experimented with some of the other non 460 ECM's on these projects. It looks like the 24lb injectors are good to about 380 HP, which is nice. A few people tried the old Vortec superchargers, which was the idea I liked, but the results are not that impressive, it sounds. I see one Competion Cams Computor grind that a few people seemed to like, but I did not get the part#, but I think it was 255 for adv. duration.  You did not mention if you wanted to stay with fuelie heads. This is the problem, when it comes to making much gain in HP, but they do make good low end torque. A 521-545 shortblock, with some decent flowing heads is another idea. If you skipped the aftermarket hyd. roller cam, and all the related parts, and the roller rockers as well, you proprably would have enough money for a stroker kit.

The actual ECM I am using was originally for a 351 W/E4OD. The beauty of the EEC-V is it is flashable or field reprogrammable. I use a Mongoose Ford pass-through cable and since I redid the interior to a 1996 style, I just use the stock OBD-II port. As far as heads, there are no aftermarket heads for the EFI 460, the intake ports are located a bit higher in the heads than the carbureted ones. They are actually (the F3TZ ones) pretty good heads particularly if you aren't trying to turn 8000 rpm. As for injectors, I had already decided on going up to the Ford Racing 30lb injectors. I am using a 90mm MAF from a Lincoln DOHC 4.6L as it has the same characteristics as the 460 one (rebuilders list them as the same PN). Since low end torque is what I want (truck weighs 6400# empty, has a 3.55 rear and is only turning 1500 rpm at 55 mph in 4th lockup. I had picked up an Edelbrock Performer Plus #2167 cam kit from a guy who was selling it ($50). It has 272° intake and 282° exhaust advertised duration with 110° lobe separation. It is supposed to be good from idle to 5500 rpm. I may end up seeing what Roy Hinton comes up with and sell it.

One of the things we are going to look at is building a tuned length intake like the small blocks use, but on the line of the 454 Chevy style but with the injectors on the outside. It would just literally be round tubes from the ports, curved around through the valley in a slightly more than full circle to get enough length, then a plenum and use a V10 TB and MAF with it.
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