Thermostat or not

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Thermostat or not

Post  460Dave on March 19th 2014, 8:51 am

D0ve-A block, filled to bottom of W/P holes, CSR electric pump, P-51 heads, 14-1 compression. Should I run a thermostat or restrictor? If so, do you have a recommendation of what type?

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  David Cole on March 19th 2014, 9:19 am

460Dave wrote:D0ve-A block, filled to bottom of W/P holes, CSR electric pump, P-51 heads, 14-1 compression.   Should I run a thermostat or restrictor?  If so, do you have a recommendation of what type?

I don't. Have the same pump. I ran it on a filled C8VE block and my A460 block. The CSR pump inlet in on the bottom of the pump is 3/4 npt. That is small compared to the radiator inlet/outlet so it serves as a restriction.
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  4thHorseman on March 19th 2014, 10:15 am

I don't run one in either of my rides. Both have 55gpm electric water pumps. It takes a bit longer to get engine up to temp but where I live they stay cool and steady.
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  Curt on March 19th 2014, 11:04 am

It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  CHARLIEB on March 19th 2014, 10:27 pm

4thHorseman wrote:I don't run one in either of my rides.  Both have 55gpm electric water pumps.  It takes a bit longer to get engine up to temp but where I live they stay cool and steady.

Very nice ride I will like to say.
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  DanH on March 20th 2014, 2:16 pm

Curt wrote:It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.

example, if the flow was exactly twice the rate as a restricter, wouldn't that be the same amount of time coolant spent in the radiator.

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  Curt on March 20th 2014, 6:15 pm

DanH wrote:
Curt wrote:It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.

example, if the flow was exactly twice the rate as a restricter, wouldn't that be the same amount of time coolant spent in the radiator.


It's about the differential of temperature between the inlet and the outlet. You could make a radiator completely ineffective if you ran it through so fast that it didn't have time to "radiate".
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  DanH on March 20th 2014, 7:26 pm

Curt wrote:
DanH wrote:
Curt wrote:It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.

example, if the flow was exactly twice the rate as a restricter, wouldn't that be the same amount of time coolant spent in the radiator.


It's about the differential of temperature between the inlet and the outlet. You could make a radiator completely ineffective if you ran it through so fast that it didn't have time to "radiate".

maybe at the speed of light could be to fast.

you know what your radiator flows? you can have it flow tested. the number might shock you

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  Curt on March 20th 2014, 11:09 pm

DanH wrote:
you know what your radiator flows?  you can have it flow tested.  the number might shock you

If you're just looking to argue I'll PM you my number. This guy was looking for help.

You haven't added anything yet trying to help him.
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  DanH on March 21st 2014, 10:01 am

Curt wrote:
DanH wrote:
you know what your radiator flows?  you can have it flow tested.  the number might shock you

If you're just looking to argue I'll PM you my number. This guy was looking for help.

You haven't added anything yet trying to help him.

I ask you a question, you didn't give an answer. why no answer?

your statement about coolant passes through to fast. That a fact? what do you have to back that up?

No argument, just looking for correct info.
A good start would be you answering my question.

my post do add to the subject, just not agreeing with your outlook.


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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  Curt on March 22nd 2014, 11:27 am

DanH wrote:
Curt wrote:It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.

example, if the flow was exactly twice the rate as a restricter, wouldn't that be the same amount of time coolant spent in the radiator.

I'll try to type slow so you can keep up.  I'll use a 3rd grade science experiment format for the example question you have given.

First experiment. This will represent a system that is completely unrestricted.
Let's say that you have a pot of water on the stove and you bring it to a boil. You take it off for 10 seconds. Almost immediately the water will quit boiling. So now you put it back on the burner. Almost immediately it come back to a boil.  

So lets say that each cycle was on the burner for 1 minute, and off the burner for 10 seconds. Each time the water comes to a boil in a very short time.

Now do that 6 times. So in 7 minutes, we have had the pot over the heat for 6 minutes and off for one minute.

Second experiment. This will represent a system that has slowed the movement of coolant down and provides more time to radiate the heat

Bring the water to a boil, leave it on the burner for 6 minutes and then off one minute. It will take substantially longer to bring the water back up to a boil when the heat is reapplied. This also was elapsing 7 minutes of time.

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  nord315 on March 22nd 2014, 12:21 pm

The following information I found on stewartcomponents.com under tech tips #3, hopefully the link works. A lot of information on cooling on the site, use it as you may, believe the information or not. I feel the more information that one can have, hopefully, that better decision you can make.

http://www.stewartcomponents.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=6

"A common misconception is that if coolant flows too quickly through the system, that it will not have time to cool properly. However the cooling system is a closed loop, so if you are keeping the coolant in the radiator longer to allow it to cool, you are also allowing it to stay in the engine longer, which increases coolant temperatures. Coolant in the engine will actually boil away from critical heat areas within the cooling system if not forced through the cooling system at a sufficiently high velocity. This situation is a common cause of so-called "hot spots", which can lead to failures.

Years ago, cars used low pressure radiator caps with upright-style radiators. At high RPM, the water pump pressure would overcome the radiator cap's rating and force coolant out, resulting in an overheated engine. Many enthusiasts mistakenly believed that these situations were caused because the coolant was flowing through the radiator so quickly, that it did not have time to cool. Using restrictors or slowing water pump speed prevented the coolant from being forced out, and allowed the engine to run cooler. However, cars built in the past thirty years have used cross flow radiators that position the radiator cap on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This type of system does not subject the radiator cap to pressure from the water pump, so it benefits from maximizing coolant flow, not restricting it."

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  Curt on March 22nd 2014, 2:30 pm

nord315 wrote:The following information I found on stewartcomponents.com under tech tips #3, hopefully the link works. A lot of information on cooling on the site, use it as you may, believe the information or not. I feel the more information that one can have, hopefully, that better decision you can make.

http://www.stewartcomponents.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=6

"A common misconception is that if coolant flows too quickly through the system, that it will not have time to cool properly. However the cooling system is a closed loop, so if you are keeping the coolant in the radiator longer to allow it to cool, you are also allowing it to stay in the engine longer, which increases coolant temperatures. Coolant in the engine will actually boil away from critical heat areas within the cooling system if not forced through the cooling system at a sufficiently high velocity. This situation is a common cause of so-called "hot spots", which can lead to failures.

Years ago, cars used low pressure radiator caps with upright-style radiators. At high RPM, the water pump pressure would overcome the radiator cap's rating and force coolant out, resulting in an overheated engine. Many enthusiasts mistakenly believed that these situations were caused because the coolant was flowing through the radiator so quickly, that it did not have time to cool. Using restrictors or slowing water pump speed prevented the coolant from being forced out, and allowed the engine to run cooler. However, cars built in the past thirty years have used cross flow radiators that position the radiator cap on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This type of system does not subject the radiator cap to pressure from the water pump, so it benefits from maximizing coolant flow, not restricting it."

That is why this was posted...............
Curt wrote:It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.

Not all cooling systems are created equally. I'm guessing none were engineered for our race cars. I've seen everything from a VW Scirocco radiator to 3 gallon, triple pass radiators on 500+ CI, hi compression engines.

Is this article based on a factory water pump, or a 55gpm racing pump? Is the radiator sized to the engine? Does it use standard size radiator hoses, or does it use #8 braided hose? Is this based on a 500 mile trip? or a 660 ft trip? What pressure cap are they talking about? The higher the pressure rating, the higher the boiling point of the coolant.

Also, they are talking about cars with thermostats. Like it or not, the thermostat is a restrictor, and that restrictor limits the amount of water going thru the radiator.

As engineers, we have to determine what works for us and our needs. Not what an article published.
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  supervel45 on March 22nd 2014, 3:08 pm

Curt wrote:It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.
Curt is correct on this statement. The temperature difference across the inlet and outlet line statement is also correct. In the HVAC world it is done all the time to on refrigerant coils and chiller barrel's. It is how we determine if the coil or barrel is dirty and when it is time to rod the tubes on chiller barrels. Get a few different temp. thermostats and a laser temp. gun, and check for yourself, on your setup, and see what provides the most drop between entering and leaving water temp, through the radiator. Then try a restrictor and see how it does. Otherwise we are all speculating, unless our cooling system is exactly like yours. I could not tell a customer over the phone if his condensor coil needs cleaning, or the condensor fan is not running to full RPM, without taking some readings, if you get my drift.

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  DanH on March 22nd 2014, 9:16 pm

supervel45 wrote:
Curt wrote:It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.
                                                                                                                                       Curt is correct on this statement. The temperature difference across the inlet and outlet line statement is also correct. In the HVAC world it is done all the time to on refrigerant coils and chiller barrel's. It is how we determine if the coil or barrel is dirty and when it is time to rod the tubes on chiller barrels. Get a few different temp. thermostats and a laser temp. gun, and check for yourself, on your setup, and see what provides the most drop between entering and leaving water temp, through the radiator. Then try a restrictor and see how it does. Otherwise we are all speculating, unless our cooling system is exactly like yours. I could not tell a customer over the phone if his condensor coil needs cleaning, or the condensor fan is not running to full RPM, without taking some readings, if you get my drift.


Curt, is the info giver type to fast for you? if so- get a pre K grader to explain it.
looks as if your fact isn't a fact. time for you to get a correct/quality cooling system












Curt, get use to your fact wasn't a fact.

btw

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  supervel45 on March 22nd 2014, 9:53 pm

I do not know? Themodynamic's is a pretty exact science. A heat exhanger is a heat exhanger and can be a sealed pressure vessel or not. Figure it out on your own, I give up. Arrow 

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  DanH on March 22nd 2014, 10:12 pm

Curt wrote:
nord315 wrote:The following information I found on stewartcomponents.com under tech tips #3, hopefully the link works. A lot of information on cooling on the site, use it as you may, believe the information or not. I feel the more information that one can have, hopefully, that better decision you can make.

http://www.stewartcomponents.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=6

"A common misconception is that if coolant flows too quickly through the system, that it will not have time to cool properly. However the cooling system is a closed loop, so if you are keeping the coolant in the radiator longer to allow it to cool, you are also allowing it to stay in the engine longer, which increases coolant temperatures. Coolant in the engine will actually boil away from critical heat areas within the cooling system if not forced through the cooling system at a sufficiently high velocity. This situation is a common cause of so-called "hot spots", which can lead to failures.

Years ago, cars used low pressure radiator caps with upright-style radiators. At high RPM, the water pump pressure would overcome the radiator cap's rating and force coolant out, resulting in an overheated engine. Many enthusiasts mistakenly believed that these situations were caused because the coolant was flowing through the radiator so quickly, that it did not have time to cool. Using restrictors or slowing water pump speed prevented the coolant from being forced out, and allowed the engine to run cooler. However, cars built in the past thirty years have used cross flow radiators that position the radiator cap on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This type of system does not subject the radiator cap to pressure from the water pump, so it benefits from maximizing coolant flow, not restricting it."

That is why this was posted...............
Curt wrote:It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.

Not all cooling systems are created equally. I'm guessing none were engineered for our race cars. I've seen everything from a VW Scirocco  radiator to 3 gallon, triple pass radiators on 500+ CI, hi compression engines.

Is this article based on a factory water pump, or a 55gpm racing pump?  Is the radiator sized to the engine? Does it use standard size radiator hoses, or does it use #8 braided hose?  Is this based on a 500 mile trip? or a 660 ft trip? What pressure cap are they talking about? The higher the pressure rating, the higher the boiling point of the coolant.

Also, they are talking about cars with thermostats. Like it or not, the thermostat is a restrictor, and that restrictor limits the amount of water going thru the radiator.

As engineers, we have to determine what works for us and our needs. Not what an article published.

was ask if the radiator rate of flow is known. . t/stat Might be a restrictor, but its not the purpose of it

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  supervel45 on March 23rd 2014, 2:26 am

We also propotion water pumps on our units by the valve opening position sometimes to control temperature of water and pump balance. So yes pump GPM does play a part in the equation, as well as radiator flow restriction. A termostat fully open does still cause some restiction, vs. no thermostat. A high temp thermostat on a engine that is not fully warmed up is going to restict even more, but should warm the engine quicker, especially on a partial filled block... I don't know if they offer different size restrictors or not. What I ment by my first post is that he might try a few different combinations on his cooling system, as it is pretty cheap to do and see what performs best for himself. I had a Ball Valve on my Jet Boat to control temperature, do to varying lake water temperature's. To bad there is not something like this for race cars. If there is please inform me. I suspect there is, but it was not asked about by the OP? We maybe trying to overengineer this simple question a Tad bit also, as it not an endurance type car at LeMan's.

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  supervel45 on March 23rd 2014, 2:51 am

David Cole wrote:
460Dave wrote:D0ve-A block, filled to bottom of W/P holes, CSR electric pump, P-51 heads, 14-1 compression.   Should I run a thermostat or restrictor?  If so, do you have a recommendation of what type?

I don't.  Have the same pump.  I ran it on a filled C8VE block and my A460 block.  The CSR pump inlet in on the bottom of the pump is 3/4 npt.  That is small compared to the radiator inlet/outlet so it serves as a restriction.
May have had a Bingo on the second post. 3/4 NPT inlet restriction.

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  Curt on March 23rd 2014, 2:15 pm

DanH wrote:
supervel45 wrote:
Curt wrote:It would dependent on the effectiveness of your cooling system. The more efficient it is, the more water you can move through it. If it is poor, you'll need to keep it in the radiator longer.
                                                                                                                                       Curt is correct on this statement. The temperature difference across the inlet and outlet line statement is also correct. In the HVAC world it is done all the time to on refrigerant coils and chiller barrel's. It is how we determine if the coil or barrel is dirty and when it is time to rod the tubes on chiller barrels. Get a few different temp. thermostats and a laser temp. gun, and check for yourself, on your setup, and see what provides the most drop between entering and leaving water temp, through the radiator. Then try a restrictor and see how it does. Otherwise we are all speculating, unless our cooling system is exactly like yours. I could not tell a customer over the phone if his condensor coil needs cleaning, or the condensor fan is not running to full RPM, without taking some readings, if you get my drift.


Curt, is the info giver type to fast for you?  if so- get a pre K grader to explain it.
looks as if your fact isn't a fact. time for you to get a correct/quality cooling system












Curt, get use to your fact wasn't a fact.


btw

Can someone translate this for me?  LOL   Laughing
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  Curt on March 23rd 2014, 2:17 pm

supervel45 wrote:
David Cole wrote:
460Dave wrote:D0ve-A block, filled to bottom of W/P holes, CSR electric pump, P-51 heads, 14-1 compression.   Should I run a thermostat or restrictor?  If so, do you have a recommendation of what type?

I don't.  Have the same pump.  I ran it on a filled C8VE block and my A460 block.  The CSR pump inlet in on the bottom of the pump is 3/4 npt.  That is small compared to the radiator inlet/outlet so it serves as a restriction.
                                                                                                                                       May have had a Bingo on the second post.  3/4 NPT inlet restriction.

Same here. I use #8 hose and fittings with a remote pump. But running alcohol, I seldom turn the fan on. I run the water pump just to prevent hot spots.
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  cool40 on March 23rd 2014, 2:43 pm

With an electric pump I dont know why a thermostat would be considered. Filled block.....14.1 compression. ..no way i'd want a thermostat.
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  Mustang-junky on March 23rd 2014, 9:12 pm

I run a gutted thermostat and an electric pump. Works good on the street.

Two row aluminum radiator, 16" electric fan turned on with a thermostatic switch, and a 12" fan on with the ignition.

Jess
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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  bbf-falcon on March 24th 2014, 5:45 pm

Mustang-junky wrote:I run a gutted thermostat and an electric pump. Works good on the street.  

Two row aluminum radiator,  16" electric fan turned on with a thermostatic switch, and a 12" fan on with the ignition.

Jess

X2,gutted thermostat has always worked for me. Thermostats are made to heat the coolant/engine up quick and not for restriction purposes.

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Re: Thermostat or not

Post  CDMBill on March 28th 2014, 12:54 am

Have any of you guys with the gutted thermostats tried the system without it? I used to do that and then skipped it and picked up faster cool down between laps. With electric fan(s) and electric water pump a restriction beyonf the radiator core itself makes no sense to me.

This is in a slow, heavy Drag Week/True Street/street driven car. 588" N/A 4230# race weight (if you can call it that) 9.70s at 140 and change.

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