Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

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Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 7th 2014, 9:20 pm

Been having some cooling problems lately. It's a bit concerning when I'm already having these problems and the ambient temperatures have only been between 65-72 degrees........

87 mustang lx, 1970 lincoln 460, worked c8ve heads, cam 530/530 @280, weiand stealth intake, proform 850 race carb, large aluminum 2 core northern performance aluminum radiator, 16" pusher fan, 180* t stat. Timing is set at 13 initial/ 34 total.

Motor started off with a 160* t-stat in it which didn't give anywhere near the time needed to cool the coolant in the radiator. Went to a 180* and it seemed to work a little better but ultimately wound up at the se result. Car will reach upward temps of around 210* at idle before I get figity and shut her down. So there's no telling how high it'll go.

That being said, it runs right at the t-stat rating when driving. So I'm led to believe that pusher fan is not toeing the line. So I'd like to put a nice puller unit on it with a shroud. The problem I'm facing is the water pump pulley is about 2 3/4 inches from the radiator. Radiator surface is 24 inches long and 19 inches high. So, can I get by with running two 10" pullers? I feel like shrouds are quite important on this but with the clearance I'm worried about what I can work out here.

Anybody have any ideas or advice they'd like to share? I'd be greatly appreciative.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  bbf-falcon on April 7th 2014, 9:29 pm

Hows the tune,maybe lean,And whats the compression?

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  maverick on April 7th 2014, 9:30 pm

If two smaller pullers make the shroud an easy fit, I'd use 'em. I think the shroud is of major importance here.
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  jasonf on April 7th 2014, 9:33 pm

Most shrouds can be made 1/2" thick. By using two fans you can work around the water pump pulleys for more clearance.

This is a fox body Northern Radiator setup I put in my Falcon.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 7th 2014, 9:43 pm

Bbf-falcon tune is just a hair fat. Compression is somewhere around 10.5:1, maybe just a tad higher. Currently running it on 93 with no detonation problems to date.

Maverick Yeah I figured the shroud would be pretty darn important with the puller. 2 smaller fans is probably the way I'll go.

Jasonf, that shroud is a work of art! Looks great! And what fans are you running? Where would one buy material such as that to complete the shroud?

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  maverick on April 7th 2014, 10:24 pm

The fact that it runs at t-stat temp while driving, but the temp climbs at idle...tells me that you have enough cooling capacity but poor airflow at no/low speed. I'm betting the pullers and shroud will do the trick.
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  kim on April 7th 2014, 10:34 pm

Mark VIII fan, 130 AMP ALTERNATOR, and never worry again. Your fan aint made to cool a V*, much less one that makes a little HP.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  aquartlow on April 8th 2014, 8:59 am

A pusher fan isn't as efficient at cooling as compared to a exact same size diameter puller fan, with all things like fan rpm, blade pitch and shroud design being equal. If you have the room AND an alternator that puts out at least 100-120amps, the Lincoln Mark VIII or even a mid to later 90's T-bird or Cougar electric fan will do an excellent job of cooling a BBF. There is lots of info on these fan assemblies with what years came with 2-speed fan motors and what type of electrical needs/connections these fans require to give trouble-free operation. I tried to fit a Mark VIII fan but the electric motor would hit the water pump pulley(even with trimming the shroud) ended up finding a dual electric fan assembly out of a '97 Ford Windstar, the dual fan assembly allows the motors to be placed on either side of the WP pulley thus giving adequate room for engine operation and/or belt removal. Here is a few pics of the Windstar assembly installed in my '79 Ranchero. Good luck and I hope this at least gives you another option for your cooling fan choices.






To save some cash I used a fan sourced from a junkyard Windstar, it has been installed over a year now with no issues, the wiring is a little involved since I went with 2 separate temp sensor controllers(Derale 16749, 1 for each fan) and 2-70 amp fan relays.
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  jasonf on April 8th 2014, 10:11 am

The Lincoln Mark VIII fan is very deep and can definitely be a problem if room is an issue.

I bought that fan setup with the radiator from Northern Radiator on ebay 6-7 years ago. It uses Spal fans. Click here to see their site.

On my tbucket I just built a shroud with 16 gauge steel that I had. It is a bit heavy gauge but I had it and you end up cutting most of it out anyways. I like steel because it is easily welded after. I just sandwiched it between two pieces of steel and bent the ends slowly with a hammer. It's time consuming but it is free. As far as fans go I always use Spal fans. They have a large selection,  some of them move a large amount of air and they seem very reliable. That one in the pics below is about 15 years old and I have used it on several projects.





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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  supervel45 on April 8th 2014, 1:18 pm

aquartlow wrote:A pusher fan isn't as efficient at cooling as compared to a exact same size diameter puller fan, with all things like fan rpm, blade pitch and shroud design being equal. If you have the room AND an alternator that puts out at least 100-120amps, the Lincoln Mark VIII or even a mid to later 90's T-bird or Cougar electric fan will do an excellent job of cooling a BBF. There is lots of info on these fan assemblies with what years came with 2-speed fan motors and what type of electrical needs/connections these fans require to give trouble-free operation. I tried to fit a Mark VIII fan but the electric motor would hit the water pump pulley(even with trimming the shroud) ended up finding a dual electric fan assembly out of a '97 Ford Windstar, the dual fan assembly allows the motors to be placed on either side of the WP pulley thus giving adequate room for engine operation and/or belt removal. Here is a few pics of the Windstar assembly installed in my '79 Ranchero. Good luck and I hope this at least gives you another option for your cooling fan choices.






To save some cash I used a fan sourced from a junkyard Windstar, it has been installed over a year now with no issues, the wiring is a little involved since I went with 2 separate temp sensor controllers(Derale 16749, 1 for each fan) and 2-70 amp fan relays.
                                                                                                                                        Very nice. If you wanted even more cooling, you could seal the gaps on the sides of the radiator, and it would pull even more air across the coil.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  aquartlow on April 8th 2014, 4:24 pm

supervel45 wrote:
aquartlow wrote:A pusher fan isn't as efficient at cooling as compared to a exact same size diameter puller fan, with all things like fan rpm, blade pitch and shroud design being equal. If you have the room AND an alternator that puts out at least 100-120amps, the Lincoln Mark VIII or even a mid to later 90's T-bird or Cougar electric fan will do an excellent job of cooling a BBF. There is lots of info on these fan assemblies with what years came with 2-speed fan motors and what type of electrical needs/connections these fans require to give trouble-free operation. I tried to fit a Mark VIII fan but the electric motor would hit the water pump pulley(even with trimming the shroud) ended up finding a dual electric fan assembly out of a '97 Ford Windstar, the dual fan assembly allows the motors to be placed on either side of the WP pulley thus giving adequate room for engine operation and/or belt removal. Here is a few pics of the Windstar assembly installed in my '79 Ranchero. Good luck and I hope this at least gives you another option for your cooling fan choices.






To save some cash I used a fan sourced from a junkyard Windstar, it has been installed over a year now with no issues, the wiring is a little involved since I went with 2 separate temp sensor controllers(Derale 16749, 1 for each fan) and 2-70 amp fan relays.
                                                                                                                                        Very nice. If you wanted even more cooling, you could seal the gaps on the sides of the radiator, and it would pull even more air across the coil.

Supervel45, Thank you for pointing that out, I have meant to do just that for a while now  Embarassed . Been too dang lazy I guess. Todd
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 8th 2014, 9:03 pm

Thanks for the help fellas. I had read about the lincoln fan being a viable option on another thread but It does appear the fan motors are a bit too large to be able to cope with my clearance issues.

So today I went ahead and ordered the northern z40014 as it was made for my radiator and it comes in at a whopping 2 5/8 thickness so it should clear my water pump pulley. If not, at least I won't have far to go to make it work.

Thank you to jasonf for posting the link to the northern factory site because I never would've probably found that part number. I thought I had searched through northerns site a few days ago but I was apparently somewhere I didn't need to be lol.

Hopefully this works fellas because after this problem is solved I'm onto paint, wheels, headlights, yadda yadda. You know the fun stuff!
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  jasonf on April 8th 2014, 9:35 pm

Glad I could help. When looking at the Northern site you need to go to the "race" section for the fans and shrouds.
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  4thHorseman on April 11th 2014, 11:04 am

FWIW, I've found that 100% water and water wetter (or a similar product) really seems to help.   I run a higher pressure cap (like a 22 to 25psi) to raise the boiling point, no thermostat, a 55gpm electric pump, biggest radiator I can effectively fit, a massive 3000cfm spal puller and a shroud with venting.  

The thermostat gets the engine up to operating temp then it opens and serves as a slight restrictor.  I personally want it to run as reasonably cool as possible here in the desert.  Some say "well you can run it through the radiator too fast and it don't have time to pull the heat out of it." I disagree.  Its a closed loop.  If water is staying in the radiator ditching heat longer guess what? It's staying in the block longer soaking up heat longer just the same.  The secret is lots of water flow, large capacity, and lots of unrestricted airflow at speed with making sure you have adequate air draw thru the radiator while idling.  Also a way to effectively vent under hood heat.

The shroud thing is a balancing act I've found.  Too little and it would run super cool cruising but temp creep scary bad in traffic.  More shroud and the temp would creep while driving and sustain in traffic.
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  BigBlockRanger on April 11th 2014, 11:28 am

I run a 2007 Chevrolet HHR fan. Cheap, low profile and works great. About $50 at rockauto.com



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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  aquartlow on April 11th 2014, 4:17 pm

4thHorseman wrote:FWIW, I've found that 100% water and water wetter (or a similar product) really seems to help.   I run a higher pressure cap (like a 22 to 25psi) to raise the boiling point, no thermostat, a 55gpm electric pump, biggest radiator I can effectively fit, a massive 3000cfm spal puller and a shroud with venting.  

The thermostat gets the engine up to operating temp then it opens and serves as a slight restrictor.  I personally want it to run as reasonably cool as possible here in the desert.  Some say "well you can run it through the radiator too fast and it don't have time to pull the heat out of it." I disagree.  Its a closed loop.  If water is staying in the radiator ditching heat longer guess what? It's staying in the block longer soaking up heat longer just the same.  The secret is lots of water flow, large capacity, and lots of unrestricted airflow at speed with making sure you have adequate air draw thru the radiator while idling.  Also a way to effectively vent under hood heat.

The shroud thing is a balancing act I've found.  Too little and it would run super cool cruising but temp creep scary bad in traffic.  More shroud and the temp would creep while driving and sustain in traffic.

I just wanted to comment on your rides. Man, both of them are beautiful, black, bad-ass rides. I bet it gets tough deciding on which to drive, wish I had a problem like that. Oh, and also a "thumbs-up" on your reply. Todd
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 11th 2014, 10:45 pm

4thhorseman, those were the next couple things I was going to try. The antifreeze is coming out, pure water with water wetter is going in. The cap on the car is only a 7lb cap so I figured I'd double it up to around a 15lb cap and see what happens. If I could get away with not running a thermostat, I'd be all for it but at this point I think it's just going to be a trial and error thing. This is the first summer this motor will see in this car with this cooling system so hopefully I can get it worked out.

I got my shroud installed with the dual 11" spal fans today, but unfortunately I got called into work before I could complete the wiring and test it out. Will give a report when I get back in town and am able to finish wiring the ol girl up.

And I second about the sweet rides, man. Two of the finest I've seen.
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  supervel45 on April 11th 2014, 11:06 pm

I did not see what kind of water pump you were running mentioned? I would play with the thermostats some more, and then try it without one. To much flow like you mentioned can have problems also. Are you running stock pulleys?

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 11th 2014, 11:57 pm

Yeah I figured this is kind of like test and tune at the track, except it's test and tune under the hood. I've got a good 160, 180, and if need be I'll go get a 195, try them all and then without any and see what happens.

Stock pulleys. Waterpump is an edelbrock victor series mechanical pump. Fairly fresh and no slop in the pulley so I doubt it's a big factor in this mess.
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Calypso on April 12th 2014, 1:39 am

Foxfire85 wrote:Bbf-falcon tune is just a hair fat.

What is the idle AFR?

edit: Asking because main circuit can be tad rich, but if the idle circuit is lean, the excess oxygen in the mix can elevate the temperatures. My own street car begun to run hot slightly above 16:1. Adjusted to 14:1 and it was like cooling issues had never existed. Had WB labmda to see the difference, couldn't see or hear any difference in idle without it. Gave up on the rpm/vacuum thing to set the idle with cammy engine, seems I couldn't get it reliably nailed down that way.

It was eyeopening to me at least, so I like to suggest opening the idle screws first, before digging into the parts bin, when guys have cooling problems without really stressing the engine for output.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 12th 2014, 4:33 pm

Calypso wrote:
Foxfire85 wrote:Bbf-falcon tune is just a hair fat.

What is the idle AFR?

edit: Asking because main circuit can be tad rich, but if the idle circuit is lean, the excess oxygen in the mix can elevate the temperatures. My own street car begun to run hot slightly above 16:1. Adjusted to 14:1 and it was like cooling issues had never existed. Had WB labmda to see the difference, couldn't see or hear any difference in idle without it. Gave up on the rpm/vacuum thing to set the idle with cammy engine, seems I couldn't get it reliably nailed down that way.

It was eyeopening to me at least, so I like to suggest opening the idle screws first, before digging into the parts bin, when guys have cooling problems without really stressing the engine for output.

I feel you amigo. To be honest with you I have no idea what the afr is. I don't have a wide band on the car yet. It's in the plans but I just haven't done it yet.

It's entirely plausible that it could be running lean at idle. It sure doesn't smell like it but I have no evidence to back that up for sure. The plugs always showed tan-ish at cruise and wot slightly slightly black so it never crossed my mind it would be lean at idle. And I've actually tried to tune down to keep the plugs from blacking but the motor hates it. I've found it runs the best where it's at but once I get the wideband on it I'm sure I'll be able to rectify any tuning mistakes I'm sure I have made as I'm certainly no carb whisperer lol.


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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  supervel45 on April 12th 2014, 6:30 pm

You might need the small restriction the thermostat provides even when it is fully open. The electric water pumps have a smaller line, and restrict some this way. The aluminum pump is what I was wondering about, as it may help disipate the heat a tad more than a cast iron one would. The inital timing as well as idle rpm and mixture will play a part also. If you can keep it under 210F. in hot summer traffic, I would not get to concerned about it, esp. if it will run 160-180 under normal conditions.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 12th 2014, 7:14 pm

Supervel, that had never crossed my mind about the aluminum pump but that surely seems like a plus. The timing is set to 13*initial/34* total. Idle rpm is around 850-900. And obviously the afr is a wuzzy or a woozy because I have no idea lol. I guess I could play around with it and richen up the 4 corner mixture screws and see if that helps or hurts any?
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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  supervel45 on April 13th 2014, 1:46 am

Foxfire85 wrote:Supervel, that had never crossed my mind about the aluminum pump but that surely seems like a plus. The timing is set to 13*initial/34* total. Idle rpm is around 850-900. And obviously the afr is a wuzzy or a woozy because I have no idea lol. I guess I could play around with it and richen up the 4 corner mixture screws and see if that helps or hurts any?
Keep in mind when you set your idle screws that the engine is up to running temp. I liked to screw all 4 in, and back them out to 1 1/2 turns and play with them from there for the smoothest idle. Holley's run lean when they get hot, on the idle circuit, so keep that in mind. They won't all end up at the same position most of the time either, but it helps to have a base line to start with. Your timing sounds good to me, along with your idle rpm. What does not sound that great are your Radiator dimensions. It is small to what I am used to dealing with, but I have a 1978 F150 with a 4 row Super Cool radiator. It gets hot idleing in the Texas summer, but I don't have electric fans on it either. Try to stay out of traffic jams in the sumertime will help also. Cool 

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 14th 2014, 1:52 pm

Fans wired up and temperature seemed to stabilize around 190 yesterday in 80* weather give or take a few degrees. I'm fairly happy with that but still am going to change out the cap, drain the system, and fill with water and water wetter. This is the first time I've really gotten to get the car out and cruise it other than the 1 mile straight stretch in front of the house and it is absolutely pig rich. I'm talking smoking rich. So that has to be dealt with ASAP. I don't know how I missed it but it never seemed to black smoke before. I'm absolutely sure it's fuel and not water or oil. So I'm kind of tired of messing with it by reading plugs and what have you because it's apparent I don't know what the hell I'm doing so a wideband is on the way. Lol

P.s. This is the first carb'd car I've ever had so this is a learning experience and a half. I'm a fuel injection baby lol
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