Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  aquartlow on April 11th 2014, 3:17 pm

4thHorseman wrote:FWIW, I've found that 100% water and water wetter (or a similar product) really seems to help.   I run a higher pressure cap (like a 22 to 25psi) to raise the boiling point, no thermostat, a 55gpm electric pump, biggest radiator I can effectively fit, a massive 3000cfm spal puller and a shroud with venting.  

The thermostat gets the engine up to operating temp then it opens and serves as a slight restrictor.  I personally want it to run as reasonably cool as possible here in the desert.  Some say "well you can run it through the radiator too fast and it don't have time to pull the heat out of it." I disagree.  Its a closed loop.  If water is staying in the radiator ditching heat longer guess what? It's staying in the block longer soaking up heat longer just the same.  The secret is lots of water flow, large capacity, and lots of unrestricted airflow at speed with making sure you have adequate air draw thru the radiator while idling.  Also a way to effectively vent under hood heat.

The shroud thing is a balancing act I've found.  Too little and it would run super cool cruising but temp creep scary bad in traffic.  More shroud and the temp would creep while driving and sustain in traffic.

I just wanted to comment on your rides. Man, both of them are beautiful, black, bad-ass rides. I bet it gets tough deciding on which to drive, wish I had a problem like that. Oh, and also a "thumbs-up" on your reply. Todd

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 11th 2014, 9:45 pm

4thhorseman, those were the next couple things I was going to try. The antifreeze is coming out, pure water with water wetter is going in. The cap on the car is only a 7lb cap so I figured I'd double it up to around a 15lb cap and see what happens. If I could get away with not running a thermostat, I'd be all for it but at this point I think it's just going to be a trial and error thing. This is the first summer this motor will see in this car with this cooling system so hopefully I can get it worked out.

I got my shroud installed with the dual 11" spal fans today, but unfortunately I got called into work before I could complete the wiring and test it out. Will give a report when I get back in town and am able to finish wiring the ol girl up.

And I second about the sweet rides, man. Two of the finest I've seen.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  supervel45 on April 11th 2014, 10:06 pm

I did not see what kind of water pump you were running mentioned? I would play with the thermostats some more, and then try it without one. To much flow like you mentioned can have problems also. Are you running stock pulleys?

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 11th 2014, 10:57 pm

Yeah I figured this is kind of like test and tune at the track, except it's test and tune under the hood. I've got a good 160, 180, and if need be I'll go get a 195, try them all and then without any and see what happens.

Stock pulleys. Waterpump is an edelbrock victor series mechanical pump. Fairly fresh and no slop in the pulley so I doubt it's a big factor in this mess.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Calypso on April 12th 2014, 12:39 am

Foxfire85 wrote:Bbf-falcon tune is just a hair fat.

What is the idle AFR?

edit: Asking because main circuit can be tad rich, but if the idle circuit is lean, the excess oxygen in the mix can elevate the temperatures. My own street car begun to run hot slightly above 16:1. Adjusted to 14:1 and it was like cooling issues had never existed. Had WB labmda to see the difference, couldn't see or hear any difference in idle without it. Gave up on the rpm/vacuum thing to set the idle with cammy engine, seems I couldn't get it reliably nailed down that way.

It was eyeopening to me at least, so I like to suggest opening the idle screws first, before digging into the parts bin, when guys have cooling problems without really stressing the engine for output.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 12th 2014, 3:33 pm

Calypso wrote:
Foxfire85 wrote:Bbf-falcon tune is just a hair fat.

What is the idle AFR?

edit: Asking because main circuit can be tad rich, but if the idle circuit is lean, the excess oxygen in the mix can elevate the temperatures. My own street car begun to run hot slightly above 16:1. Adjusted to 14:1 and it was like cooling issues had never existed. Had WB labmda to see the difference, couldn't see or hear any difference in idle without it. Gave up on the rpm/vacuum thing to set the idle with cammy engine, seems I couldn't get it reliably nailed down that way.

It was eyeopening to me at least, so I like to suggest opening the idle screws first, before digging into the parts bin, when guys have cooling problems without really stressing the engine for output.

I feel you amigo. To be honest with you I have no idea what the afr is. I don't have a wide band on the car yet. It's in the plans but I just haven't done it yet.

It's entirely plausible that it could be running lean at idle. It sure doesn't smell like it but I have no evidence to back that up for sure. The plugs always showed tan-ish at cruise and wot slightly slightly black so it never crossed my mind it would be lean at idle. And I've actually tried to tune down to keep the plugs from blacking but the motor hates it. I've found it runs the best where it's at but once I get the wideband on it I'm sure I'll be able to rectify any tuning mistakes I'm sure I have made as I'm certainly no carb whisperer lol.



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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  supervel45 on April 12th 2014, 5:30 pm

You might need the small restriction the thermostat provides even when it is fully open. The electric water pumps have a smaller line, and restrict some this way. The aluminum pump is what I was wondering about, as it may help disipate the heat a tad more than a cast iron one would. The inital timing as well as idle rpm and mixture will play a part also. If you can keep it under 210F. in hot summer traffic, I would not get to concerned about it, esp. if it will run 160-180 under normal conditions.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 12th 2014, 6:14 pm

Supervel, that had never crossed my mind about the aluminum pump but that surely seems like a plus. The timing is set to 13*initial/34* total. Idle rpm is around 850-900. And obviously the afr is a wuzzy or a woozy because I have no idea lol. I guess I could play around with it and richen up the 4 corner mixture screws and see if that helps or hurts any?

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  supervel45 on April 13th 2014, 12:46 am

Foxfire85 wrote:Supervel, that had never crossed my mind about the aluminum pump but that surely seems like a plus. The timing is set to 13*initial/34* total. Idle rpm is around 850-900. And obviously the afr is a wuzzy or a woozy because I have no idea lol. I guess I could play around with it and richen up the 4 corner mixture screws and see if that helps or hurts any?
Keep in mind when you set your idle screws that the engine is up to running temp. I liked to screw all 4 in, and back them out to 1 1/2 turns and play with them from there for the smoothest idle. Holley's run lean when they get hot, on the idle circuit, so keep that in mind. They won't all end up at the same position most of the time either, but it helps to have a base line to start with. Your timing sounds good to me, along with your idle rpm. What does not sound that great are your Radiator dimensions. It is small to what I am used to dealing with, but I have a 1978 F150 with a 4 row Super Cool radiator. It gets hot idleing in the Texas summer, but I don't have electric fans on it either. Try to stay out of traffic jams in the sumertime will help also. Cool 

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 14th 2014, 12:52 pm

Fans wired up and temperature seemed to stabilize around 190 yesterday in 80* weather give or take a few degrees. I'm fairly happy with that but still am going to change out the cap, drain the system, and fill with water and water wetter. This is the first time I've really gotten to get the car out and cruise it other than the 1 mile straight stretch in front of the house and it is absolutely pig rich. I'm talking smoking rich. So that has to be dealt with ASAP. I don't know how I missed it but it never seemed to black smoke before. I'm absolutely sure it's fuel and not water or oil. So I'm kind of tired of messing with it by reading plugs and what have you because it's apparent I don't know what the hell I'm doing so a wideband is on the way. Lol

P.s. This is the first carb'd car I've ever had so this is a learning experience and a half. I'm a fuel injection baby lol

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Dave C. on April 14th 2014, 1:37 pm

Make sure the power valves are correct and in good shape. Jet to stock specs and tune from there.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 14th 2014, 2:43 pm

I rebuilt the carb back mid winter. No pv in the secondaries, primary metering block is a 4.5. New acc pump diaphragms, needle and seats, .37 squirters (had an off lean problem back when), and a bunch of little nonsense. The factory jet sizes were 78 primary and 84 secondary. Do you guys run squared all around or staggered like this? A few of the old hot rodders I know look at me like I'm retarded when I tell them they're staggered.

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  kim on April 14th 2014, 8:14 pm

Power valves in or no power valves at all square.... Power valve on primary side only typical 6 to 8 jet size split to compensate for the lack of the power valve enrichment, or more accurately you've reduced the primary side 6 to 8 because the power valve is there to enrich the system when at WOT>

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  Foxfire85 on April 14th 2014, 8:16 pm

Ahhhhhhh. That makes plenty of sense. I just had one of those Homer Simpson "doh!!" Moments. Thanks for that lol

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Re: Getting hot and it's not even hot yet.

Post  maverick on April 15th 2014, 8:21 am

This is a street machine...Factory jetting will be close enough for the girls I run with.  Wink 

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