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Interesting Victor manifold copy

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Post  460pulling October 24th 2014, 11:56 am

It amazes me how some on here expect people to spend $XXX,XXX amount of money on stuff. If it works who really cares where is it made? And if a guy wants to race with a 460 and only spend money on cheap stuff but has fun doing it good for him.

It doesn't make a persons car/ engine any better or worse than anyone else's car.

Also why buy a "USED" hogged out and dirty victor intake for a street car/ show car when you could buy a new one cheaper. and get the same results.

Not everyone is putting there engine in a drag car or racing it in any fashion.

Scat, eagle, lunati, prw, ohio crank, etc. are all made in CHINA. And I bet all 80% of the people on here have used a part from one of these manufacturers. And I bet they loved the price and quality compared to others prices and the same quality.

Just saying that not everyone wants the same as the next and not everyone has unlimited funds. The original poster was looking for feedback and info on this.

Should change the name to www.429-460DRAGRACINGFORUM.com lol Very Happy

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Post  dfree383 October 24th 2014, 12:20 pm

460pulling wrote:It amazes me how some on here expect people to spend $XXX,XXX amount of money on stuff. If it works who really cares where is it made? And if a guy wants to race with a 460 and only spend money on cheap stuff but has fun doing it good for him.

It doesn't make a persons car/ engine any better or worse than anyone else's car.

Also why buy a "USED" hogged out and dirty victor intake for a street car/ show car when you could buy a new one cheaper. and get the same results.

Not everyone is putting there engine in a drag car or racing it in any fashion.

Scat, eagle, lunati, prw, ohio crank, etc. are all made in CHINA. And I bet all 80% of the people on here have used a part from one of these manufacturers. And I bet they loved the price and quality compared to others prices and the same quality.

Just saying that not everyone wants the same as the next and not everyone has unlimited funds. The original poster was looking for feedback and info on this.

Should change the name to www.429-460DRAGRACINGFORUM.com lol Very Happy
first you do understand that it costs money to develop and build things right? And those companies that stick their neck out to bring you new and better stuff need to make some money to keep that cycle of new and better rolling....... It's not the parts coming from china that's the problem..... It's the assholes like procomp ripping crap off that's the problem......and people buying this crap is killing the industry.
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Post  richter69 October 24th 2014, 12:21 pm

How much is the intake?
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Post  dfree383 October 24th 2014, 12:23 pm

richter69 wrote:How much is the intake?

They use fleabay to attempt to see where the market price should be. Follow the auctions on the parts.
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Post  BigBlockRanger October 24th 2014, 1:34 pm

dfree383 wrote:And those companies that stick their neck out to bring you new and better stuff need to make some money to keep that cycle of new and better rolling.......

It's been my observation that when it comes to "new and better" Edelbrock could care less about the BBF.  

Hell, the only EFI capable intake they offer for the BBF is based off a figgin' Torker II.
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Post  cool40 October 24th 2014, 1:52 pm

dfree383 wrote:
460pulling wrote:It amazes me how some on here expect people to spend $XXX,XXX amount of money on stuff. If it works who really cares where is it made? And if a guy wants to race with a 460 and only spend money on cheap stuff but has fun doing it good for him.

It doesn't make a persons car/ engine any better or worse than anyone else's car.

Also why buy a "USED" hogged out and dirty victor intake for a street car/ show car when you could buy a new one cheaper. and get the same results.

Not everyone is putting there engine in a drag car or racing it in any fashion.

Scat, eagle, lunati, prw, ohio crank, etc. are all made in CHINA. And I bet all 80% of the people on here have used a part from one of these manufacturers. And I bet they loved the price and quality compared to others prices and the same quality.

Just saying that not everyone wants the same as the next and not everyone has unlimited funds. The original poster was looking for feedback and info on this.

Should change the name to www.429-460DRAGRACINGFORUM.com lol Very Happy
first you do understand that it costs money to develop and build things right? And those companies that stick their neck out to bring you new and better stuff need to make some money to keep that cycle of new and better rolling....... It's not the parts coming from china that's the problem..... It's the assholes like procomp ripping crap off that's the problem......and people buying this crap is killing the industry.  
what did they rip off? The intake manifold that looks like a victor? Laughing the heads that look like ford heads? Hell i guess who ever builds it first gets ripped off when somebody else builds one. Rolling Eyes the market for low buck junk is always strong,look at the auto industry!
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Post  kim October 24th 2014, 2:04 pm

Little to do with the argument for or against copy parts.  It is ironic though that the founder of the brand was all but run out of town for his low cost product and intent to market to the masses.   At the time of implementing the Ford Motor Company.  Automobiles, or horseless carriages were for the rich and elite only.  The chasis were assembled and sold then the owner contracted one of several guild approved coach builders to put the body on the car.

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Post  dfree383 October 24th 2014, 2:11 pm

BigBlockRanger wrote:
dfree383 wrote:And those companies that stick their neck out to bring you new and better stuff need to make some money to keep that cycle of new and better rolling.......

It's been my observation that when it comes to "new and better" Edelbrock could care less about the BBF.  

Hell, the only EFI capable intake they offer for the BBF is based off a figgin' Torker II.

And it works..... And it correctly machined for injectors, and it's offered as a package with all the parts you need to make it damn near a bolt on....

I know better than to argue this shit on the internet....... All most people care about is price price price..... Cheaper is better..... Why should I pay more...... I don't care that is a piece of crap..... It's cheaper..... Rolling Eyes

I will concied that a lot of the industry companies are not what the used to be..... The recent wave of mergers, bankruptcies and acquisitions have pretty much doomed the industry to Wall Street standards...... Not a love for the sport.

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Post  dfree383 October 24th 2014, 2:16 pm

kim wrote:Little to do with the argument for or against copy parts.  It is ironic though that the founder of the brand was all but run out of town for his low cost product and intent to market to the masses.   At the time of implementing the Ford Motor Company.  Automobiles, or horseless carriages were for the rich and elite only.  The chasis were assembled and sold then the owner contracted one of several guild approved coach builders to put the body on the car.

Interesting comparison..... But a little different IMO. All procrap is is a scumbag middle man that copies and does nothing but push junk. At least Henry Ford developed a lot of innovative industry leading things...... Assembly lines...... Manufacturing techniques..... Mass production to make things accessible to the masses....
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Post  Carl October 24th 2014, 3:42 pm

Want to know why there isn't a decent low rise single plane dual quad intake for the 429/460?

Crap like this, that's why.  I was all set to lay down the money to make it happen, then Procomp started popping out that turd-ball of a dual quad they sell. Completely destroyed the market.

How many other products have never been developed because of crap like this?  I know of several other 429/460 ventures that were scrapped because of the likelihood that they'd be copied like this.  Copyright is a foreign concept to those people....like they don't even have a word for it.  I've tried to negotiate with them, and it's a deer in the headlights look when you try to discuss exclusive rights.  The "china connection" has decimated grass-roots innovation in this country.  Want a cheap intake?  Buy some metal and weld one up for yourself, it'll almost certainly be better than any of the POS rip-offs being sold.

/rant

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Post  kim October 24th 2014, 3:47 pm

I sort of look at it as a cost control.  Very similar to generic drugs in the pharmaceutical area.  I don't begrudge a company getting a fair value price for a product.  But without competition fair value price gets a little outrageous.   Fords having taken a bad rap for forever in the performance market because of the costs associated with building one as compared to an equal build of a chevy.  Every vendor in the world offers chevy parts.  Ford pieces. ..  we have very few options.  

If someone offers a suitable quality piece for a reasonable price.  Do what Mr Kaase did when ford screwed him over on the aluminum SCJ heads.   He improved the design and offered the P51 heads and excluded Ford FRPP from vending them.  Someone copies your mousetrap consider your design a success and then make it better so the copy is obsolete.

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Post  BigBlockRanger October 24th 2014, 4:19 pm

That was sort of my point. Edelbrock keep shoveling the same old crap to us but comes out with a new BBC or SBC intake or cylinder head every 6 months it seems like. They probably offer 10+ efi capable intakes for a BBC but only 1 for a BBF.

At least the "copycats" see a market and create a part to fill that market instead of ignoring us altogether.
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Post  dfree383 October 24th 2014, 4:46 pm

BigBlockRanger wrote:That was sort of my point.  Edelbrock keep shoveling the same old crap to us but comes out with a new BBC or SBC intake or cylinder head every 6 months it seems like.   They probably offer 10+ efi capable intakes for a BBC but only 1 for a BBF.  

At least the "copycats" see a market and create a part to fill that market instead of ignoring us altogether.

You honestly believe that procrap has any interest in the 429-460 market other then making some bad copies of things that need updated....... The market is flooded with BBF victor manifolds..... They are trying to compete against the used part market.... It is nothing innovative or new !!!!!! In fact I think it's a waste of time doing what they have done, now had they done the improvements that eddy should have done a few years back.....now they might have something.

You want the truth why Edelbrock wont update it..... Because there aren't enough people that will buy them! It's a small market ! They do the Chevy stuff because the market is 20 to 30 times the sales !
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Post  FalconEh October 24th 2014, 4:59 pm

In today's global disregard for patents (Asia) many companies have begun to knock off their own products after R&D and creation. If you can't beat them join them, you sell a second brand of your product that is less refined, and you also sell the top level product in this case it would be a hand worked/CNC piece (stage1/2/3etc.). It is unfortunate that all you have to do is send a product to a manufacturer in Asia and they will copy it, but it has also been going on long enough that it should be expected. If you are inventing the wheel and don't want it to get knocked off then bring it manufacture and offer to the masses a reasonable price thus keeping the majority of the market purchasing your product.
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Post  BigBlockRanger October 24th 2014, 5:04 pm

I get are a small market, but dang, they offer more Pontiac and BB Dodge EFI intakes than BBF's. lol

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Post  kim October 24th 2014, 5:16 pm

FalconEh wrote:In today's global disregard for patents (Asia) many companies have begun to knock off their own products after R&D and creation. If you can't beat them join them, you sell a second brand of your product that is less refined, and you also sell the top level product in this case it would be a hand worked/CNC piece (stage1/2/3etc.). It is unfortunate that all you have to do is send a product to a manufacturer in Asia and they will copy it, but it has also been going on long enough that it should be expected. If you are inventing the wheel and don't want it to get knocked off then bring it manufacture and offer to the masses a reasonable price thus keeping the majority of the market purchasing your product.

Its a small market because no-one offers something for the back yard enthusiast.   There is no grow into a headache possibility.   You have stock....  or 1000hp race engine.  If a few vendors had step up products the market would be self developing.  Used to always here the same argument about the small block ford.  Till the 5.0 boom and then viola it was all of a sudden cheaper to build a little ford than it was a 350 chevy... sorry on phone got call popped back and quote was wrong poster. My apologies

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Post  IDT-572 October 24th 2014, 5:47 pm

When I talked to Edelbrock the reason they told me for not bringing a so called super victor to the market was the were selling against their self. This was at about the time the Mafia intake came out.

And it wasn't enough of a threat for Edelbrock to volley a shot back.

Another thing is the Victor and Mafia will in 90% or more cases cover the intended usage almost up to the entry level A head engines.

Above that point most people if rules allow step up to the A head.

I myself would love to see an extended plenum shorter more equal length runner intake for the truck pullers I do engines for. But that market is probably too small for the big manufacturers.
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Post  rmcomprandy October 24th 2014, 5:50 pm

kim wrote:
FalconEh wrote:In today's global disregard for patents (Asia) many companies have begun to knock off their own products after R&D and creation. If you can't beat them join them, you sell a second brand of your product that is less refined, and you also sell the top level product in this case it would be a hand worked/CNC piece (stage1/2/3etc.). It is unfortunate that all you have to do is send a product to a manufacturer in Asia and they will copy it, but it has also been going on long enough that it should be expected. If you are inventing the wheel and don't want it to get knocked off then bring it manufacture and offer to the masses a reasonable price thus keeping the majority of the market purchasing your product.

Its a small market because no-one offers something for the back yard enthusiast.   There is no grow into a headache possibility.   You have stock....  or 1000hp race engine.  If a few vendors had step up products the market would be self developing.  Used to always here the same argument about the small block ford.  Till the 5.0 boom and then viola it was all of a sudden cheaper to build a little ford than it was a 350 chevy...  sorry on phone got call popped back and quote was wrong poster.  My apologies

I have a pretty good cylinder head I wish to get manufactured and willing to GIVE IT AWAY to someone in the USA to manufacture it.
I have been in contact with almost every USA cylinder head manufacturer to get it done; some USA based Australian companies, too ... EVERY one of them told me there is not enough market for them to produce it and I should go the Chinese route. EVERY one of them gave me the same speech.

These USA manufacturers that you all hold so dear are just a bunch of whores themselves and will simply preach taking a smaller market product which they have no desire to produce to a lesser whore. I applaud the people/companies who are able to do that.

Am I bitter ...?  You bet I am. These kinds of USA companies DESERVE to be copied and undercut.


Last edited by rmcomprandy on October 24th 2014, 5:58 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Spelliong and punctuation)

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Post  IDT-572 October 24th 2014, 6:00 pm

The 460 385 engine came on the hp seen just a little too late. With the race track car counts down in every venue, the demand for any racing product is hurting now.

If everyone had realized the 460 would have fit a fox body in 79 and a fair aluminum head and headers were available , and (if and butt's were candy and nut's we would all have a merry Christmas) Laughing

Things would have turned out different Twisted Evil
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Post  rmcomprandy October 24th 2014, 6:06 pm

IDT-572 wrote:When I talked to Edelbrock the reason they told me for not bringing a so called super victor to the market was the were selling against their self. This was at about the time the Mafia intake came out.

And it wasn't enough of a threat for Edelbrock to volley a shot back.

Another thing is the Victor and Mafia will in 90% or more cases cover the intended usage almost up to the entry level A head engines.

Above that point most people if rules allow step up to the A head.

I myself would love to see an extended plenum shorter more equal length runner intake for the truck pullers I do engines for. But that market is probably too small for the big manufacturers.    

Blake will know evactly what I am talking about here when I say I did the same thing going to USA manufacturers with a pretty good intake manifold I designed and constructed a few years ago.  
Hurray for those guys who are kicken' A$$ with that prototype manifold on their engine these days. Their association actually wants to make it illegal now.

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Post  Carl October 24th 2014, 7:10 pm

FalconEh wrote:offer to the masses a reasonable price

And there's the rub.  

The masses have come to believe that the prices of off-shore crap are "reasonable", and that parts being made domestically are inflated, they're being gouged, and people trying to sell things made here are just a bunch of greedy bastards.  Can't tell you how many guys think there's a 100% margin in pistons, or rods, or carburetors....when it's often more like 5-10%.  Relative to intake manifolds, my price point would have been $700.00, and I would have seen less profit than I do selling a POS knockoff part. Sure, a guy could have them made off-shore to achieve a more "reasonable" price, but the up front investment is substantially greater, and then the people you paid to make them for you will just pop out a few hundred or thousand more for somebody else who doesn't have the development cost and is willing to undercut your price just because they can.

No thanks.

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Post  Carl October 24th 2014, 7:27 pm

Hey, here's an idea for all you entrepreneurial experts.......

Come to a consensus on what you want, and I'll set up a Kick-Starter for it. If you're unfamiliar, the way a Kick-starter works is you agree to pay for whatever the product is, and when enough people get on board, the project gets funded. Not enough people, you get your money back. I've been on the funding side of a few of these and it works out pretty well.

What do you say? Who's ready to put their money where they're mouth is?

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Post  Barney October 24th 2014, 8:12 pm

I got a pro comp belt drive... works great.
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Post  Lem Evans October 24th 2014, 8:19 pm

kim wrote:I sort of look at it as a cost control.  Very similar to generic drugs in the pharmaceutical area.  I don't begrudge a company getting a fair value price for a product.  But without competition fair value price gets a little outrageous.   Fords having taken a bad rap for forever in the performance market because of the costs associated with building one as compared to an equal build of a chevy.  Every vendor in the world offers chevy parts.  Ford pieces. ..  we have very few options.  

If someone offers a suitable quality piece for a reasonable price.  Do what Mr Kaase did when ford screwed him over on the aluminum SCJ heads.   He improved the design and offered the P51 heads and excluded Ford FRPP from vending them.  Someone copies your mousetrap consider your design a success and then make it better so the copy is obsolete.

I suspect that the reason is that frpp owned the tooling.....if a guy owns the tooling he may do what he wishes with it.

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Post  Lem Evans October 24th 2014, 8:42 pm

Carl wrote:
FalconEh wrote:offer to the masses a reasonable price

And there's the rub.  

The masses have come to believe that the prices of off-shore crap are "reasonable", and that parts being made domestically are inflated, they're being gouged, and people trying to sell things made here are just a bunch of greedy bastards.  Can't tell you how many guys think there's a 100% margin in pistons, or rods, or carburetors....when it's often more like 5-10%.  Relative to intake manifolds, my price point would have been $700.00, and I would have seen less profit than I do selling a POS knockoff part.  Sure, a guy could have them made off-shore to achieve a more "reasonable" price, but the up front investment is substantially greater, and then the people you paid to make them for you will just pop out a few hundred or thousand more for somebody else who doesn't have the development cost and is willing to undercut your price just because they can.

No thanks.

I suspect that 'we' are in the wrong country to play that game. A guy would have to move to a country that promoted....

1] theft of intellectual property
2] manipulated currency exchange rates
3] paid a worker less per year than those that draw welfare or unemployment, in the usa, draw per week.

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