Interesting Victor manifold copy

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  kim on October 24th 2014, 3:47 pm

I sort of look at it as a cost control.  Very similar to generic drugs in the pharmaceutical area.  I don't begrudge a company getting a fair value price for a product.  But without competition fair value price gets a little outrageous.   Fords having taken a bad rap for forever in the performance market because of the costs associated with building one as compared to an equal build of a chevy.  Every vendor in the world offers chevy parts.  Ford pieces. ..  we have very few options.  

If someone offers a suitable quality piece for a reasonable price.  Do what Mr Kaase did when ford screwed him over on the aluminum SCJ heads.   He improved the design and offered the P51 heads and excluded Ford FRPP from vending them.  Someone copies your mousetrap consider your design a success and then make it better so the copy is obsolete.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  BigBlockRanger on October 24th 2014, 4:19 pm

That was sort of my point. Edelbrock keep shoveling the same old crap to us but comes out with a new BBC or SBC intake or cylinder head every 6 months it seems like. They probably offer 10+ efi capable intakes for a BBC but only 1 for a BBF.

At least the "copycats" see a market and create a part to fill that market instead of ignoring us altogether.
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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  dfree383 on October 24th 2014, 4:46 pm

BigBlockRanger wrote:That was sort of my point.  Edelbrock keep shoveling the same old crap to us but comes out with a new BBC or SBC intake or cylinder head every 6 months it seems like.   They probably offer 10+ efi capable intakes for a BBC but only 1 for a BBF.  

At least the "copycats" see a market and create a part to fill that market instead of ignoring us altogether.

You honestly believe that procrap has any interest in the 429-460 market other then making some bad copies of things that need updated....... The market is flooded with BBF victor manifolds..... They are trying to compete against the used part market.... It is nothing innovative or new !!!!!! In fact I think it's a waste of time doing what they have done, now had they done the improvements that eddy should have done a few years back.....now they might have something.

You want the truth why Edelbrock wont update it..... Because there aren't enough people that will buy them! It's a small market ! They do the Chevy stuff because the market is 20 to 30 times the sales !
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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  FalconEh on October 24th 2014, 4:59 pm

In today's global disregard for patents (Asia) many companies have begun to knock off their own products after R&D and creation. If you can't beat them join them, you sell a second brand of your product that is less refined, and you also sell the top level product in this case it would be a hand worked/CNC piece (stage1/2/3etc.). It is unfortunate that all you have to do is send a product to a manufacturer in Asia and they will copy it, but it has also been going on long enough that it should be expected. If you are inventing the wheel and don't want it to get knocked off then bring it manufacture and offer to the masses a reasonable price thus keeping the majority of the market purchasing your product.
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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  BigBlockRanger on October 24th 2014, 5:04 pm

I get are a small market, but dang, they offer more Pontiac and BB Dodge EFI intakes than BBF's. lol

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  kim on October 24th 2014, 5:16 pm

FalconEh wrote:In today's global disregard for patents (Asia) many companies have begun to knock off their own products after R&D and creation. If you can't beat them join them, you sell a second brand of your product that is less refined, and you also sell the top level product in this case it would be a hand worked/CNC piece (stage1/2/3etc.). It is unfortunate that all you have to do is send a product to a manufacturer in Asia and they will copy it, but it has also been going on long enough that it should be expected. If you are inventing the wheel and don't want it to get knocked off then bring it manufacture and offer to the masses a reasonable price thus keeping the majority of the market purchasing your product.

Its a small market because no-one offers something for the back yard enthusiast.   There is no grow into a headache possibility.   You have stock....  or 1000hp race engine.  If a few vendors had step up products the market would be self developing.  Used to always here the same argument about the small block ford.  Till the 5.0 boom and then viola it was all of a sudden cheaper to build a little ford than it was a 350 chevy... sorry on phone got call popped back and quote was wrong poster. My apologies

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  IDT-572 on October 24th 2014, 5:47 pm

When I talked to Edelbrock the reason they told me for not bringing a so called super victor to the market was the were selling against their self. This was at about the time the Mafia intake came out.

And it wasn't enough of a threat for Edelbrock to volley a shot back.

Another thing is the Victor and Mafia will in 90% or more cases cover the intended usage almost up to the entry level A head engines.

Above that point most people if rules allow step up to the A head.

I myself would love to see an extended plenum shorter more equal length runner intake for the truck pullers I do engines for. But that market is probably too small for the big manufacturers.
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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  rmcomprandy on October 24th 2014, 5:50 pm

kim wrote:
FalconEh wrote:In today's global disregard for patents (Asia) many companies have begun to knock off their own products after R&D and creation. If you can't beat them join them, you sell a second brand of your product that is less refined, and you also sell the top level product in this case it would be a hand worked/CNC piece (stage1/2/3etc.). It is unfortunate that all you have to do is send a product to a manufacturer in Asia and they will copy it, but it has also been going on long enough that it should be expected. If you are inventing the wheel and don't want it to get knocked off then bring it manufacture and offer to the masses a reasonable price thus keeping the majority of the market purchasing your product.

Its a small market because no-one offers something for the back yard enthusiast.   There is no grow into a headache possibility.   You have stock....  or 1000hp race engine.  If a few vendors had step up products the market would be self developing.  Used to always here the same argument about the small block ford.  Till the 5.0 boom and then viola it was all of a sudden cheaper to build a little ford than it was a 350 chevy...  sorry on phone got call popped back and quote was wrong poster.  My apologies

I have a pretty good cylinder head I wish to get manufactured and willing to GIVE IT AWAY to someone in the USA to manufacture it.
I have been in contact with almost every USA cylinder head manufacturer to get it done; some USA based Australian companies, too ... EVERY one of them told me there is not enough market for them to produce it and I should go the Chinese route. EVERY one of them gave me the same speech.

These USA manufacturers that you all hold so dear are just a bunch of whores themselves and will simply preach taking a smaller market product which they have no desire to produce to a lesser whore. I applaud the people/companies who are able to do that.

Am I bitter ...?  You bet I am. These kinds of USA companies DESERVE to be copied and undercut.


Last edited by rmcomprandy on October 24th 2014, 5:58 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Spelliong and punctuation)

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  IDT-572 on October 24th 2014, 6:00 pm

The 460 385 engine came on the hp seen just a little too late. With the race track car counts down in every venue, the demand for any racing product is hurting now.

If everyone had realized the 460 would have fit a fox body in 79 and a fair aluminum head and headers were available , and (if and butt's were candy and nut's we would all have a merry Christmas) Laughing

Things would have turned out different Twisted Evil
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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  rmcomprandy on October 24th 2014, 6:06 pm

IDT-572 wrote:When I talked to Edelbrock the reason they told me for not bringing a so called super victor to the market was the were selling against their self. This was at about the time the Mafia intake came out.

And it wasn't enough of a threat for Edelbrock to volley a shot back.

Another thing is the Victor and Mafia will in 90% or more cases cover the intended usage almost up to the entry level A head engines.

Above that point most people if rules allow step up to the A head.

I myself would love to see an extended plenum shorter more equal length runner intake for the truck pullers I do engines for. But that market is probably too small for the big manufacturers.    

Blake will know evactly what I am talking about here when I say I did the same thing going to USA manufacturers with a pretty good intake manifold I designed and constructed a few years ago.  
Hurray for those guys who are kicken' A$$ with that prototype manifold on their engine these days. Their association actually wants to make it illegal now.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  Carl on October 24th 2014, 7:10 pm

FalconEh wrote:offer to the masses a reasonable price

And there's the rub.  

The masses have come to believe that the prices of off-shore crap are "reasonable", and that parts being made domestically are inflated, they're being gouged, and people trying to sell things made here are just a bunch of greedy bastards.  Can't tell you how many guys think there's a 100% margin in pistons, or rods, or carburetors....when it's often more like 5-10%.  Relative to intake manifolds, my price point would have been $700.00, and I would have seen less profit than I do selling a POS knockoff part. Sure, a guy could have them made off-shore to achieve a more "reasonable" price, but the up front investment is substantially greater, and then the people you paid to make them for you will just pop out a few hundred or thousand more for somebody else who doesn't have the development cost and is willing to undercut your price just because they can.

No thanks.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  Carl on October 24th 2014, 7:27 pm

Hey, here's an idea for all you entrepreneurial experts.......

Come to a consensus on what you want, and I'll set up a Kick-Starter for it. If you're unfamiliar, the way a Kick-starter works is you agree to pay for whatever the product is, and when enough people get on board, the project gets funded. Not enough people, you get your money back. I've been on the funding side of a few of these and it works out pretty well.

What do you say? Who's ready to put their money where they're mouth is?

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  Barney on October 24th 2014, 8:12 pm

I got a pro comp belt drive... works great.
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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  Lem Evans on October 24th 2014, 8:19 pm

kim wrote:I sort of look at it as a cost control.  Very similar to generic drugs in the pharmaceutical area.  I don't begrudge a company getting a fair value price for a product.  But without competition fair value price gets a little outrageous.   Fords having taken a bad rap for forever in the performance market because of the costs associated with building one as compared to an equal build of a chevy.  Every vendor in the world offers chevy parts.  Ford pieces. ..  we have very few options.  

If someone offers a suitable quality piece for a reasonable price.  Do what Mr Kaase did when ford screwed him over on the aluminum SCJ heads.   He improved the design and offered the P51 heads and excluded Ford FRPP from vending them.  Someone copies your mousetrap consider your design a success and then make it better so the copy is obsolete.

I suspect that the reason is that frpp owned the tooling.....if a guy owns the tooling he may do what he wishes with it.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  Lem Evans on October 24th 2014, 8:42 pm

Carl wrote:
FalconEh wrote:offer to the masses a reasonable price

And there's the rub.  

The masses have come to believe that the prices of off-shore crap are "reasonable", and that parts being made domestically are inflated, they're being gouged, and people trying to sell things made here are just a bunch of greedy bastards.  Can't tell you how many guys think there's a 100% margin in pistons, or rods, or carburetors....when it's often more like 5-10%.  Relative to intake manifolds, my price point would have been $700.00, and I would have seen less profit than I do selling a POS knockoff part.  Sure, a guy could have them made off-shore to achieve a more "reasonable" price, but the up front investment is substantially greater, and then the people you paid to make them for you will just pop out a few hundred or thousand more for somebody else who doesn't have the development cost and is willing to undercut your price just because they can.

No thanks.

I suspect that 'we' are in the wrong country to play that game. A guy would have to move to a country that promoted....

1] theft of intellectual property
2] manipulated currency exchange rates
3] paid a worker less per year than those that draw welfare or unemployment, in the usa, draw per week.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  FalconEh on October 24th 2014, 9:10 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
Carl wrote:
FalconEh wrote:offer to the masses a reasonable price

And there's the rub.  

The masses have come to believe that the prices of off-shore crap are "reasonable", and that parts being made domestically are inflated, they're being gouged, and people trying to sell things made here are just a bunch of greedy bastards.  Can't tell you how many guys think there's a 100% margin in pistons, or rods, or carburetors....when it's often more like 5-10%.  Relative to intake manifolds, my price point would have been $700.00, and I would have seen less profit than I do selling a POS knockoff part.  Sure, a guy could have them made off-shore to achieve a more "reasonable" price, but the up front investment is substantially greater, and then the people you paid to make them for you will just pop out a few hundred or thousand more for somebody else who doesn't have the development cost and is willing to undercut your price just because they can.

No thanks.

I suspect that 'we' are in the wrong country to play that game. A guy would have to move to a country that promoted....

1] theft of intellectual property
2] manipulated currency exchange rates
3] paid a worker less per year than those that draw welfare or unemployment, in the usa, draw per week.

That is it ...although my quote is used out of context in this string.

The problem is 2-fold, first when the heirarchy doesn't protect the intelectual property by monitoring the imported products, and the piracy begins whether it is from your Country, or someone in another? usually it's someone in your own State knocking off your product (all they need is one). Second when referring to the masses as mentioned "a reasonable price" is as cheap as it can be attained; given this and the low margins of the quality product that takes tones of research and development and creates quality products that are not designed for the masses, why allow somebody else to knock off your product when you can use the higher margin lower quality product that is good enough for the masses to balance the profit numbers and fund the R&D so by the time the next stage is knocked off by yourself, the first one is nearly obsolete and you benefitted prior to the margin saturation. As I said it may not be fair but it is real, and it is the reality of the challenges the heirarchy has opened the door to, so the question is do you stop innovation, or adapt to protect your innovations when no one else will Question
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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  kim on October 24th 2014, 9:46 pm

Aka. Apple and the I phone. The newer better faster... is already in build... as the current generation is released. They make their market... and kill us with better, bigger, faster... as soon as 4 was out... 5 was announced as soon as 5 was available. .. 6.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  bbf-falcon on October 24th 2014, 10:42 pm

kim wrote:Aka. Apple and the I phone.  The newer better faster...   is already in build...  as the current generation is released.   They make their market...  and kill us with better, bigger, faster... as soon as 4 was out...  5 was announced as soon as 5 was available. ..  6.

Kinda reminds me of some well known head porters,before Fed Ex delivers them too your door after a hefty porting charge,the porter is calling you saying that when you do a freshen up,send me the heads back and I can pick the flow up more for you. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  dfree383 on October 24th 2014, 10:58 pm

kim wrote:Aka. Apple and the I phone.  The newer better faster...   is already in build...  as the current generation is released.   They make their market...  and kill us with better, bigger, faster... as soon as 4 was out...  5 was announced as soon as 5 was available. ..  6.
and the Chinese are selling then all around the world too..... I can't tell you how many pallets of knock off iPhones I've seen around the world.... And knock off sunglasses..... Shoot.... They are so correct they are sometimes better than the real ones.
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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  Carl on October 24th 2014, 11:22 pm

kim wrote:Aka. Apple and the I phone.  The newer better faster...   is already in build...  as the current generation is released.

And they have to put bars/nets on the windows of the factories to keep more workers from jumping to their death.

Next person I see driving a foreign vehicle, talking on an i-phone, complaining about Walmart not treating it's employees well is getting smacked upside the head.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  rmcomprandy on October 24th 2014, 11:52 pm

Barney wrote:I got a pro comp belt drive... works great.

AND ... even that's a knock-off copy of the one designed originally by Australian Muscle Parts.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  kim on October 25th 2014, 12:11 am

See Im that idiot that payed full boat for all american
Weiand intake. Frpp m600 block. JE pistons. Oliver rods. Holley carbs. Etc.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  cool40 on October 25th 2014, 12:24 am

kim wrote:See Im that idiot that payed full boat for all american
Weiand intake. Frpp m600 block.  JE pistons. Oliver rods.  Holley carbs. Etc.  
dont hog all the credit,im in that club too. Wink if i have the need for a procomp part maybe my credits good enough to get it. Laughing
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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  bbf-falcon on October 25th 2014, 1:56 am

Answer this Question gentlemen Exclamation If the wife asks you too get her ( Gucci )pocket book for Christmas,and she gives you the choice of a real one for $600 or a Knockoff identicle one for $40,which one are you gonna get her? Now ,lets see who the iodiots are . I know where my $$$$will be spent.

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Re: Interesting Victor manifold copy

Post  dfree383 on October 25th 2014, 10:42 am

bbf-falcon wrote:Answer this Question gentlemen Exclamation If the wife asks you too get her ( Gucci )pocket book for Christmas,and she gives you the choice of a real one for $600 or a Knockoff identicle one for $40,which one are you gonna get her? Now ,lets see who the iodiots are . I know where my $$$$will be spent.

If your a smart man you'll get the real one....... Suicide by knockoff is an ugly thing.

You may not believe it, but the name brand stuff is typically of much higher quality.... I've been overseas a lot and been to the places where real rich people shop and I've been to the markets where the poor go.... The difference is profound.
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