A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

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A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  fastbarry on November 23rd 2014, 11:56 pm

i am putting a new motor together for my race truck.   I just had a failure related to oil starvation and i want to prevent it from happening again.

a little about what i had and what i am switching to.

this is all in a 79 f150 4x4 that is very heavily modified for offroad racing.

the combo that i was running:   stock bore 460 grenade motor


4.360 bore early efi small dish pistons
3.85 stroke oem crank
stock truck rods w/ arp bolts
dooe-r heads with bowl guide and short turn work done as per Scotty's website
solid flat tappet cam .624/ .648 lift
252* / 260* @.050" lift
port matched victor intake w/ 1250 dommi and 2" open spacer.
zero deck block
11.25 comp.
m84dhv oil pump
stock rear sump pan
oil passage from pump to filter pad opened up and blended, oil drain back mods made.


this engine loved to rev!  i had a 6800 rpm rev limit and it was still pulling very had right into the rev limiter.   i found that i had to pay attention to when i was shifting because the engine worked so well from 5500 on up. it was easy to let it hang out in the very top end of the rpm range which was the sweet spot.  i was worried about breaking a con rod.  
The races are about 8-10 miles long and after 4-5 miles of running flat out wide open, the oil pressure gauge would start jumping around wildly and average pressure would be down until oil drained back to the pan.   2 miles from the end of the last main of the day while in the lead i had a rod start hammering and got very bad by the finish line.     *I Won!*



the new engine.   i want more power and had a bunch of parts.  also switching to efi

here is what i have:
motorsport A heads,  heavily ported w/  2.3 in and 1.88 ex valves   ti retainers  and springs good for about low .800"  lift
motorsport single carb intake modified for efi
4.5"  stroke crower forged crank
6.8 scat h-beam rods w/ arp 2000 bolts
4.44" diamond flat tops
solid roller cam  roughly  272* and 278* @ .050" lift    mid 700's lift   (dont have the card in front of me right now.)
morel lifters
kaase oil pump.




i am looking for suggestions on how to keep this new set up together.  Is it as simple as just a larger pan?  or,  is dry sump in my future?


Barry
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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  kim on November 24th 2014, 12:13 am

larger pan, consider restricting flow to the lifters and valve train... Restricted push rods would help.. You simply pumped all the oil up into the heads and lifter galley, and were stuck sucking foam.. Nice 13 quart pan would really help prevent the pain. That and an oil accumulator.

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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  powerstrokeace on November 24th 2014, 12:37 am

bush the lifter bores and put an acc-u-sump on. try not using a high volume pump as well. you never stated what pan

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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  fastbarry on November 24th 2014, 12:42 am

that motor had a stock truck rear sump pan
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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  dfree383 on November 24th 2014, 12:51 am

Dry sump it if your off road racing, it's going to be your only true solution in that type of application.
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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  rmcomprandy on November 24th 2014, 1:12 am

Quit trying to use a stock production block.
Either open the main oil gallery to 5/8", PPassenger side), and bush the lifter bores or use an A460 block.

Keep the bearing clearances on the minimum side.

It won't get you more power but, you'll bring it home not injured.

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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  fastbarry on November 25th 2014, 1:02 am

What would you call out for bearing clearances on a deal like this?     I suspect the tight clearance is to keep oil volume down right?

A question about restricting oil flow to the top end.    Is oil flow through the top end is good for keeping valve springs cool?  What about allowing the oil to flow and adding large drains from the valve covers to the pan with a large sump capacity?      If there is an adequate oil supply in the sump,  and a pump like a kaase pump is used, will the main and rod bearings receive enough oil without restricting top end oil?

I am not trying to be dense or reinvent the wheel,  I'm just asking questions and trying to learn.


Last edited by fastbarry on November 26th 2014, 12:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  rmcomprandy on November 25th 2014, 11:22 am

.0020" rod & .0025" main with an OEM 460 crankshaft with a GOOD quality rod.

The correct amount of oil to the top end, whatever THAT may be is, "the correct amount of oil needed to the top end". That NEED will have to be determined by inspection and varying. There is no easy determination for every application.

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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  butterbean on November 25th 2014, 12:11 pm

Randy, his new engine is a 4.500 stroke combo so my guess would be .0027 to .0030 mains and .0020 to .0022 rods good luck with the new build!!!!
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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  DanH on November 25th 2014, 12:12 pm

dfree383 wrote:Dry sump it if your off road racing, it's going to be your only true solution in that type of application.

Agree, Start with a dry sump system or end up with a dry sump.


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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  Paul Kane on November 25th 2014, 1:32 pm

I think you need more oil control in the oil pan, and frankly you need more pan. At "6800 rpm" and "4-5 miles of running flat out," that 4.3" stroke is going to be a whoooole different deal on windage than the 3.85" stroke crankshaft was in your last engine.

Further, even with the above changes, I think that a standard volume internal pump may destroy your engine in this particular endurance racing application before your reach the finish line, and the amount of bearing clearance tightening necessary to maintain oil pressure with the super-hot oil will risk inadequate lubrication (ie, it's a very delicate balancing act for non-engine builders).  If you stay internal oil pump then I think you need an HV pump with a specially prepared pickup tube.  I know BBF racers that have tried sustained rpm racing with 10-quart pans and std volume pumps, and as the race goes on and oil temperature spikes, the pump simply cannot supply the pressure the engine needs for such racing abuse. The racers end up needing to shut down, and those who try to race on blow up their engines.

As if your particular racing program isn't brutal enough, we have a customer that runs the Baja 1000 with a BBF stroker. His engine builder did lots long run, sustained rpm dyno testing with our Stage 2 Kit.  With a relatively thin 10-30W petroleum-based dino oil, the engine was run non-stop on a dyno at 5800 rpm for 20 minutes, water temp went to 222*, oil temp up to 242*.  With these oil and water temps, 20 minutes into this sustained rpm testing the oil pressure was still holding 50 psi; bearings looked immaculate. (And obviously a thicker oil or synthetic oil would have sustained more pressure yet.)

Your racing program does not consist of a horsepower dyno test and you are not chasing every last 2 hp with pump volume, you are counting on lubrication in order to finish the race.
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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  rmcomprandy on November 25th 2014, 1:44 pm

butterbean wrote:Randy, his new engine is a 4.500 stroke combo so my guess would be .0027 to .0030 mains and .0020 to .0022 rods good luck with the new build!!!!

Much to much bearing clearance with a constant running endurance application where you actually get hot oil.
With a 2.200" rod journal, (instead of one 2.500"), and a good quality steel rod I would drop it further to .0018" rod clearance; somewhere between .0008" and .0009" oil clearance per inch of journal diameter.

You guys can certainly run whatever you wish and hemorrhage oil everywhere inside ... then wonder why you have little control over it.

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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  DanH on November 26th 2014, 1:41 pm

Rany said it, "hot oil". Very hot oil, can be 300+ degrees, thats where the dry sump shines. Dry sumps are able to have a large volume of oil and heat exchanger

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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  DaveMcLain on November 26th 2014, 5:53 pm

I think it can be done using an internal wet sump pump if you can get the oil under control and that means only putting the oil where its needed in the engine and in the volume that's needed to do the job and no more. Cutting back the valvetrain oil using lifter bore bushings and restrictors, adding some return lines straight to the pan and shutting off the stock returns that enter the crankcase would probably be helpful.

You could always run an oil cooler. One of my customers who has a Pantera has an interesting and effective oil cooler on his engine. It has its own electrically driven circulation pump that simply picks up oil from the sump, pumps it through a cooler with a fan and then returns it to the sump. At the Silver State Classic the oil and coolant temperatures stayed at about 200 degrees for 90 miles of 6000rpm running with a 385 inch Cleveland. Oil pressure was a steady 75lbs using an out of the box stock Melling pump. I think that a big Ford could work similarly. His pan is an 8 quart model and he ran 20W50 Valvoline oil. Clearances .0025 main .002 rods.

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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  cletus66 on November 26th 2014, 11:43 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:I think it can be done using an internal wet sump pump if you can get the oil under control and that means only putting the oil where its needed in the engine and in the volume that's needed to do the job and no more.  Cutting back the valvetrain oil using lifter bore bushings and restrictors, adding some return lines straight to the pan and shutting off the stock returns that enter the crankcase would probably be helpful.  

You could always run an oil cooler.  One of my customers who has a Pantera has an interesting and effective oil cooler on his engine.  It has its own electrically driven circulation pump that simply picks up oil from the sump, pumps it through a cooler with a fan and then returns it to the sump.  At the Silver State Classic the oil and coolant temperatures stayed at about 200 degrees for 90 miles of 6000rpm running with a 385 inch Cleveland.  Oil pressure was a steady 75lbs using an out of the box stock Melling pump.  I think that a big Ford could work similarly.  His pan is an 8 quart model and he ran 20W50 Valvoline oil.  Clearances .0025 main .002 rods.  

Being aware of your monster truck experience, how would the offroad bouncing around conditions affect this combo?
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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  dfree383 on November 27th 2014, 12:01 am

DanH wrote:Rany said it, "hot oil".  Very hot oil, can be 300+ degrees, thats where the dry sump shines. Dry sumps are able to have a large volume of oil and heat exchanger

And deairator
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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  DaveMcLain on November 28th 2014, 1:05 pm

cletus66 wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:I think it can be done using an internal wet sump pump if you can get the oil under control and that means only putting the oil where its needed in the engine and in the volume that's needed to do the job and no more.  Cutting back the valvetrain oil using lifter bore bushings and restrictors, adding some return lines straight to the pan and shutting off the stock returns that enter the crankcase would probably be helpful.  

You could always run an oil cooler.  One of my customers who has a Pantera has an interesting and effective oil cooler on his engine.  It has its own electrically driven circulation pump that simply picks up oil from the sump, pumps it through a cooler with a fan and then returns it to the sump.  At the Silver State Classic the oil and coolant temperatures stayed at about 200 degrees for 90 miles of 6000rpm running with a 385 inch Cleveland.  Oil pressure was a steady 75lbs using an out of the box stock Melling pump.  I think that a big Ford could work similarly.  His pan is an 8 quart model and he ran 20W50 Valvoline oil.  Clearances .0025 main .002 rods.  

Being aware of your monster truck experience, how would the offroad bouncing around conditions affect this combo?  

That's tough to say but I would think that if you could get the sump deep enough it would work ok. One of the weak areas of the big Ford has always been its propensity to break off the oil pump which is something that the Kaase pump solves but I think that tends to happen mostly in drag racing applications where tire shake can happen. In the monster truck engines I've never had a pump break off that I can remember BUT I also have fabricated a brace that attaches from the pump to the front main cap I think that's important.

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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  Paul Kane on November 28th 2014, 2:02 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:...One of the weak areas of the big Ford has always been its propensity to break off the oil pump...but I think that tends to happen mostly in drag racing applications where tire shake can happen.  In the monster truck engines I've never had a pump break off that I can remember BUT I also have fabricated a brace that attaches from the pump to the front main cap I think that's important.
Here are some images that show the "double support brace" setup we like to use on pickup tubes in high hp engines; note the second bracket added near the oil pump which bolts to the #2 main cap bolt:





It's also very important to not load or stress the pump body during the pickup tube fitment; the pickup should be properly positioned in its free-standing state/before being bolted in place (ie, don't allow the pickup to "leverage" the pump as it's being bolted in place).
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Re: A head 557 for offroad endurance racing

Post  fastbarry on November 29th 2014, 9:56 pm

it looks like i may be able to roll some bearings in so im going to try to get another couple events out of this motor to give me some time to do the big motor right.
for the engine that is in the truck now, i am going to stay internal pump and build a 12 quart box pan with a windage tray and do a 1" od pickup tube and port my pump inlet to match. i will also add -16 drains to the rear lower corners of the valve covers directly to the pan. the block has the rear valley drains blended and radiused and drains added to the front bulkead.

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