60ft times - A good measure??

Go down

60ft times - A good measure??

Post  HorsinAround on January 28th 2015, 10:28 am

As many of you know I come from the pulling world where times are not relevant so as I have been reading and talking to everyone I can to learn about the sport of drag racing, the fascination on 60ft times have puzzled me. So, this morning I did a quick google search and found 2 seemingly opposite views on 60ft times. I'll repost below, but would like to get additional input on this because as I get my truck running this year, I need to know what to focus on to tune the truck in.

From a post on truestreetcars.com

The Sixty Foot Myth
by Patrick Budd, ProCar Performance
How often have you been in a bench racing session and heard the discussion turn to whose car has the best sixty-foot times? The guy with the littlest number is often credited with having the best overall chassis set up- yet many don't understand what goes into a quick short time. The sixty-foot time is probably the most hyped incremental measurement on the ET slip. It should be noted that the guy with the little number down low often doesn't have the biggest number up top, speed. (The best indicator of power.) It is the number most associated with chassis efficiency, or "hook'. If the sixty-foot time is in line with other racers in the car owner's class, the chassis builder/designer is given a pass and high fives are dispensed all around. Obviously, the race is not won or lost at the sixty-foot clocks. It's the quarter mile ET that matters, and if the driver has done his or her job at the line, it's the last increment that will indicate the win.

So, as the owner of ProCar, (a chassis shop) how is it I'm slagging the sixty-foot as the increment of choice? It's simple, really. The lightest car in any class (with equitable rules) should sixty-foot the fastest. In a class that adds weight for clutches, power adders, or model year, the lightest car should make its way off the starting line and to the sixty-foot clocks the quickest in virtually every case. While quarter mile speed is an excellent indicator of power to weight, the sixty-foot time is not. If it sounds nuts that a well-tuned light chassis can out run even the best tuned "heavy' car in a short sprint, let me break it down for you.

Initial acceleration, the charge a racecar makes off the starting line and through those sixty-foot timers doesn't require a ton of power to be quick. Contemporary 500” Pro Stocks will consistently go between .997 and 1.00 or so, and they have nowhere near the power of a Pro Mod blower car that will short .02-.03 slower. The blown Pro Mod has to do two things the Pro Stocker does not: move an additional 350 lbs. and deal with a power band that builds steam as the car moves out. The Pro Stocker uses mechanical leverage (gear ratio) and a manageable and relatively flat power curve to move its lighter mass forward very quickly. This allows the crew chief to manage that "thrust' in a way that will repeat and stay hooked, run after run.

Case in point: in 2002, our car wound up in a final round against Marc Dantoni in Stanton, Michigan. No one, including me, gave our driver (Randy Jewell) a chance against Marc. Pre-race preparations completed, I sought out a spot at the 330' mark to see how humiliating this was going to be. As the cars left, I noticed that our Corvette drilled Marc a half car length through the first 200 feet. For a split second, I let myself dream "what if?' - . Within the next 250 feet the 57 Chevy of Dantoni reeled Randy in and whacked our team by a solid 2-3 tenths - It was bloody. I couldn't wait to see what the ticket said. I knew our boy was ahead when they flew by me, but I didn't know how much. As it turned out, Randy had a mild advantage on reaction time and a whopping advantage in sixty-foot- a 1.04 to a 1.09- but Marc drilled his eyes out to the 330', the point at which his horsepower advantage came to light. It was then and there that I came to realize that the lighter car could be tossed about by the weaker motor much more easily that the heavier car could get motivated by the stronger engine. We had a 325 lb. advantage over Marc thanks to the rule book- 225 to the trans and 100 to the sheer cubic inch he held on us, our (at the time) low 7 second car easily made it's move off the starting line before his heavier car could get on the tire and do the same. Watching his car rip past us at the 300 foot mark taught me what those little numbers meant on the ET slip- almost nothing- until you read the last number row, MOV, or margin of victory.

Does this mean that we should crumple the slips at the end of the run and chuck "em? No. What it means is these increments don't mean much unless compared against cars of the same weight and same combination. It's a lot like comparing heads by only referencing flow numbers against each other, it only tells part of the story. The ET slip's greatest value is when it used as a gauge against the same car's performance, a way to measure progress. If we raced our dyno sheets against our competitors, all we'd have to do is compare the printouts and declare a winner. Yet we all accept that the dyno is a very relative number, and need to view the sixty-foot measurement the same way. It is a great measure against the cars past performance, but not necessarily a great yardstick against a car with a different combination.

So what are the common elements that link cars with good sixty foots together? First, they all make the tires "round' as quickly as possible. You really can hook a tire too hard. Consider the pulling tractor that slows its acceleration as the load slides up the sled and stalls forward progress- four link and shock tune ups that crush the tire and keep it wadded as the car drives out do much the same. The old adage is true; loose is often fast. "Stiff is better' is a truism many builders have recognized. While some still prefer a more flexible car, the latest trend in both Pro Mod and Pro Stock favor cars that are very rigid "between the tubs', and are loaded with X's that span everywhere from the upper four link area to the shock cross member. Builders are recognizing that even minute flex in this area wastes forward energy and slows the cars initial move from the starting line. A quick look into the rear window of a current Haas or RJ car will show this is true. Stiff shock settings that hold the housing in check as the power comes down the drive shaft aid in smooth power application- as long as the shocks aren't too stiff to upset chassis attitude over down-track bumps.

In closing, respect the data the slip shows you, and be proud of a personal best sixty footer. Don't tune the car simply to achieve a max short time however, as the 330' times may suffer, and it's hard to re-gain that margin down track. It's all relative.

From s10planet.com

60 foot time, How and Why



How important is the 60 ft. time, what improvements help and how do I accomplish them?

In drag racing the 60 ft. time is THE most important to a fast ET! (reaction time is for racing another vehicle!)

For purposes of discussion I'm leaving the engine alone. We will assume it to stay at the same HP. There really is no single best mod to make as the problems vary depending on the vehicle in question.

First, just how important is 60' time? Improvements as little as .02 sec. can lower ET by a tenth! Why? Mass! We have to get that hulk of machinery moving! Sitting at a dead stop and accelerating at full throttle, think about it. It's the most challenging thing to do in a drag race. To me, this puts weight at the top of my list.

Weight-The old rule of thumb of 100 lbs of weight reduction shaving a tenth off ET is pretty accurate. But, the biggest gains due to weight reduction are in the 60' times. Not only that, but with less mass to get moving, less load is put on the tires reducing traction issues.
Another thing on weight, like that jacked up look in the back? Bad move, you just took a bunch of rear weight and put it on the front tires.
Okay, so you've gotten rid of all the weight you can stand (or afford if we're talking fiberglass!). Let's move what we can to the rear then. Ain't none of us that I know of can move TOO much weight to the rear. Easiest is the battery. Next would be all those big-*** amps and speakers I see so much of these days. Get 'em as far back as you can stand. For you guys with fuel tanks on the side think about installing a rear tank (not as hard or expensive as you'd think!). Us S guys can drop 30 lbs. up front easy by converting to a manual geabox. Next would be dynamically moving front weight to the rear. We'll discuss traction aids below.

Traction-Boy, how many of us haven't spun and watched the other guy scoot away!?! But, most of us drive our vehicles regularly and can't just drive around on race slicks waiting for the next red-light challenge. So lets address that.

Tires-See that treadwear rating on the side of your tire? If you bought 60k mile tires it's probably over 400. Not good. Too hard but not impossible to make hook. Hopefully you have them as wide as possible. Best bet is a drag radial but lots of us can't be shelling out $350-400 every 5-10k miles or so. So something in between is called for. Ask your tire dealer what you're expecting and see what they say. If they're goofy, you'll know.

Weight Transfer- Let's transfer some of that weight when we stomp the pedal. The more of that we can do the less we have to worry about tires.Herein lies the tradeoff zone. Cheapest way to transfer weight is to unhook the front sway bar (or if you're boneheaded like me, throw it away!)Next cheapest and best way to transfer weight to the rear is front drag springs. I hear lots of whining when it comes to drag springs on the street. I run 'em. Makes high speed cornering interesting. But, hey, all the other sports only use 1 ball. DO NOT order just any drag spring from a parts catalog. Get it weighed and get the RIGHT springs. $20-$50 to weigh all 4 corners is CHEAP. Springs are under a $200 for our trucks. Unless you take corners as kamikaze as I do you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference. Drag shocks would add to the equation but things get REAL interesting on the interstate with both. Rear springs are okay but we're talking trucks and most of us have leafs so we'll skip that. Rear drag shocks will help it squat a little. If you find a set for you're application cheap enough, give 'em a try.

Cal-trac's, Slide-a-Link's, Traction Bar's, Slapper bar's, etc.- Take your pick. What you're gonna do is take the rotation of the axle, under load, and transfer that lifting force forward on the vehicles frame. That effectively puts more weight on the rear wheels. Tends to keep the dreaded "wheel hop" away also. On my high 12 blazer the $39 traction bars work great. BUT, they're modified to put the point of contact where I want it. If you've got the money for the bad-boy stuff, go for it. It does produce better results IF YOU HAVE THE POWER to use it.

Rear sway bar- This is the one you want connected. Very easy to make one side adjustable to straighten out your launch if you're yanking to one side. The right rear needs the pre-load. What!?! you say? The left front is lifting, that puts weight on the right rear! Uh-uh. The twisting force of the axle is trying to lift the right rear. Think about it. Better yet, make that rear bar adjustable and see for yourself.

Gear ratio- The lower the gear ratio (higher numerically) the lower the 60'. Period. How much can you stand? If you've got overdrive 3.50-4.20 should be your gear of choice

Posi-Traction- Need I say more? If you ain't got it, get it. I tend to stay away from the cone and clockspring posi's. The clutch, gear and locker types are the way to go. I'll do a separate write-up on the different types.

Torque Converter- Will do more than all the above put together to lower your 60' time. BUT, if you don't have your traction issues fixed the converter is GUARANTEED to make it worse! A 2500 stall converter will normally reduce 60' times .2-.4 over a stock converter. I run around 3000 on my converter but I kept my lock-up functioning and don't suffer fuel mileage problems.

This article was brought to you by Sparky2263.
avatar
HorsinAround

Posts : 1066
Join date : 2009-08-06
Location : North Central Indiana

View user profile http://www.frontpagefab.com

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  cool40 on January 28th 2015, 10:58 am

60' time is only a point to measure by. Its good to know at what point in the pass you could possibly improve et. Say you only looked at your mph and its huge compared to your et, you'd want to know why it didnt et like you would expect. "if" your 60' sucks it hurts over all performance and et! 60' times are no more important than 330' but you can pick up more et by getting that 60' number down than anywhere else on the track. A turbo car is a good example of 60'/ et / mph contrast. The 60' time may not look very fast but 330' is a little better and 66o' is even quicker than you expected. The real surprise in that case would be mph! You'd think with the big mph it would have had a faster et. Cool some cars 60' fast but run out on the far end becouse of gearing,converter, or just not enough cow bell. Razz
avatar
cool40
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 7168
Join date : 2009-08-31
Age : 47
Location : on the 1/8 mile dyno

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  dfree383 on January 28th 2015, 11:21 am

Great 60' times tell you that you car is working good. Crappy 60' time tell you have better ETs if you work on the 60' times.

Basic physics.... Faster you get out of the hole, the better ET potential the car has with the power it has.
avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 14162
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  Curt on January 28th 2015, 11:23 am

The 60' time is my most important number on the time slip. If my 60s aren't consistent, then neither is my 660'.
avatar
Curt

Posts : 2661
Join date : 2009-02-08
Age : 56
Location : Henrietta, Texas but mostly on the road

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  whatbumper on January 28th 2015, 11:36 am

I care about 330 the most. Of course the 60' is a major player in that time. The 330-660 time is a measure of horsepower.

whatbumper

Posts : 3023
Join date : 2009-11-11
Age : 38

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  bbf-falcon on January 28th 2015, 1:53 pm

Imo, a 60' time would mean more to a nitrous car or n/a car than a turbo car that comes on hard later in the run.When I look at my slip, I first check et, next the short time. I think the short time is very crusial.

bbf-falcon

Posts : 8992
Join date : 2008-12-03
Location : Jackson, Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  cool40 on January 28th 2015, 2:23 pm

Curt wrote:The 60' time is my most important number on the time slip. If my 60s aren't consistent, then neither is my 660'.  
another good example of why 60' time is important! A bracket racer is looking for consistency and every spot on that time slip will tell you where your at.
avatar
cool40
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 7168
Join date : 2009-08-31
Age : 47
Location : on the 1/8 mile dyno

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  HorsinAround on January 28th 2015, 2:58 pm

[quote=A bracket racer is looking for consistency and every spot on that time slip will tell you where your at.[/quote

This sums up my understanding at this point. Each spot on the slip tells a story. And through the use of a log a person can see what is changing. I am likeing what I see with the electronic log books, because it will put all the weather data in with the et slip along with data you enter for adjustments tune etc. It seems like all this information would go along way towards improving a racer's "game".
avatar
HorsinAround

Posts : 1066
Join date : 2009-08-06
Location : North Central Indiana

View user profile http://www.frontpagefab.com

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  dfree383 on January 28th 2015, 3:13 pm

bbf-falcon wrote:Imo, a 60' time would mean more to a nitrous car or n/a car than a turbo car that comes on hard later in the run.When I look at my slip, I first check et, next the short time. I think the short time is very crusial.

Is have to disagree with you, the 60' times are important on all drag cars, some combos just don't 60' as good as they should because of things like turbo lag or small donuts.

avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 14162
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  bbf-falcon on January 28th 2015, 3:53 pm

That's probably true also,I really can't say anything at all about turbo cars.Whatbumper would be the expert on that.

bbf-falcon

Posts : 8992
Join date : 2008-12-03
Location : Jackson, Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  56Tbird on January 28th 2015, 7:05 pm

I think a bracket racer relies on 60ft times a lot more than a heads up guy,but both need them to know what their car is doing. I like the white tickets best myself Twisted Evil cheers king
avatar
56Tbird
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 5255
Join date : 2008-12-02
Age : 59
Location : Hawesville,Ky.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  bbf-falcon on January 28th 2015, 8:49 pm

Yellow tickets are for losers,nothing you would know anything about hobby. king drunken

bbf-falcon

Posts : 8992
Join date : 2008-12-03
Location : Jackson, Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure?? YES

Post  FalconEh on January 28th 2015, 10:46 pm

The downside to the time slip is there is not enough information on it...Data loggers were a natural progression with technology. However,all the information on the slip is valuable, for the most part an accurate reading of the progression of the pass at a given point, but one must also consider that it is a statistical reading (measurement) that is only as accurate as the care given to make the measurement accurate.For example for a National or Sanctioned event extreme care will be take to ensure the accuracy of the information given, however the local track on any other given day may or may not be accurate or consistent. What if the 60' sensor is at 59' or 61' (close enough??) maybe one or more sensors are out? I am not trying to undermine the tracks but quality control is an issue in all businesses whether it be a restaurant or a racetrack. Suspect
avatar
FalconEh

Posts : 1429
Join date : 2014-08-21
Location : on the blacktop or in the mountains ????

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  Curt on January 29th 2015, 11:19 am

FalconEh wrote: What if the 60' sensor is at 59' or 61' (close enough??) maybe one or more sensors are out? I am not trying to undermine the tracks but quality control is an issue in all businesses whether it be a restaurant or a racetrack. Suspect

Most tracks will always have the same incremental measurements. That's where the log book comes in. If you're at a track that you have data on, and you 60' is way off, time to pull out the Disto and check it. 60's are seldom wrong.
avatar
Curt

Posts : 2661
Join date : 2009-02-08
Age : 56
Location : Henrietta, Texas but mostly on the road

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  dfree383 on January 29th 2015, 2:03 pm

Curt wrote:
FalconEh wrote: What if the 60' sensor is at 59' or 61' (close enough??) maybe one or more sensors are out? I am not trying to undermine the tracks but quality control is an issue in all businesses whether it be a restaurant or a racetrack. Suspect

Most tracks will always have the same incremental measurements. That's where the log book comes in. If you're at a track that you have data on, and you 60' is way off, time to pull out the Disto and check it. 60's are seldom wrong.

Things that will change are incline or decline.... Quality of prep, quality/condition of surface and type of surface.
avatar
dfree383
BBF CONTRIBUTOR
BBF CONTRIBUTOR

Posts : 14162
Join date : 2009-07-09
Location : Home Wif Da Wife.....

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: 60ft times - A good measure??

Post  yellowhorse7 on January 30th 2015, 7:43 am

whatbumper wrote:I care about 330 the most.  Of course the 60' is a major player in that time.  The 330-660 time is a measure of horsepower.


X2. That is what I really look for. It explains power application, TC efficiency, etc. A car can dead hook and 60 fairly well but what happens at 100ft? And what can be done to correct it

Just my shitty .02
avatar
yellowhorse7

Posts : 1382
Join date : 2009-11-16
Age : 92
Location : Polk County

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum