Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

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Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on June 22nd 2015, 11:50 am

Afternoon,

Ford 460 (early)
Car not been driven with all this setup, so all new and sorting out problems.

Overheating problem when at the lights, the temp gauge creeping towards the red (sorry dont have actual gauge (F)(C) but standard dashboard needle) driving appears to be fine at this stage.
Have not removed or checked the thermostat will remove and check next water level are ok
4 Core Rad (copper not alloy)
2 x 14 inch fans mounted at front Pushing as no room to mount behind the Rad, water pump shaft 2in away from RAD engine bay tight...

The water pump looks to be cast-iron, has some markings on it that appear to be upside down and look like PH366 (S) last digit appears to be a large S ?

Again have done number of searches , but have not found anything with that number or casting mark. study

Anyone able to identify the casting mark on waterpump PH366 (S) ?
Also would a STOCK (if its stock) water pump be fine ?
(it was replaced when the Engine was build some 20yr but car has never been driven, was parked with nice green coolant in system so water does not look crusty etc or bad)

thanks in advanced

I did want to post a picture , but again i may not have permission to do so .... ""Uploaded file is not valid: exceeded attachment maxsize (0 kB).""
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bbcoupe on September 6th 2015, 10:53 am

I'm using EF/EL fans, you can also use AU fans they are all similar. I had to cut away the middle a little to fit them in. I have an Edelbrock aluminium water pump, If the engine has sat for so long and you want to start tiding it up a new water pump would be good insurance and is a start to some weight savings.


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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on September 6th 2015, 11:22 am

trying to post some pictures.... just signed to photobucket as this forum does not permit me to upload directly ? so not 100% is my paste will work below ?







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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  gmsmkr on September 6th 2015, 11:38 am

Are you sure the head gaskets are installed correctly? water ports on gaskets go to the back
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  supervel45 on September 6th 2015, 1:15 pm

Pull the cap off the radiator when the engine is cool and put a thermometer in it. Run the engine and see were the gauge corresponds with actual water temperature.

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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on September 6th 2015, 7:18 pm

Thanks for replys....

Will do the test once i am back with the car. Do have copper head gaskets and beej oringed as was built as a nitros motor in the day so i would hope the head gaskets would be more obvious.

If they are in wrong would the motor overheat no matter what? As it gets into the red at the lights after driving but if u can get moving and again it will return to normal. Idling and not driving is fine.

Will look at the fan shroud option also. Need to move the trans and p/s cooler.

Rob
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on September 6th 2015, 7:23 pm

Oh also regarding the condition of the water pump, this was renewed whtn the motor was buil years ago, but i think the anti corrosion / freeze kept it looking good.

I have a inspection snake camera thing, and removing the bottom rad hose i could get right into the pump area and rotate and see the shaft / propeller fins and all looked good. But ideal would replace this boat anchor for alloy unit.

With the pumps, i for some reason thought i had read the high flow pumps are only good for high revs and not low revs at were my problem lies.

I had also changed the bottom crank puller for a smaller unit for clearence issues, and also now run a stepdown waterpump pully also to make up the speed at lower rpm.

Rob
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bbcoupe on September 6th 2015, 7:48 pm

Nice to see in the later model Falcon. I see your issue with room now, power steering and aircon adding to the space issue. I also modified my radiator mounts so the radiator sits forward, as close to the support panel as I could get.

Is the cooling a new problem, did it run good temps when first installed?

I agree that re-locatiing the oil filters may help.

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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  supervel45 on September 6th 2015, 8:12 pm

I think you will have to go to puller fans, especially if you want to run the A/C.

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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on September 6th 2015, 8:19 pm

Hi.

Yes true. The aircon is currently not connected or condenser in place at the moment...

That would definitely get things in the red.... will get things cool first before trying this....
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  supervel45 on September 6th 2015, 8:46 pm

The trans and P/S cooler are definitely not helping your airflow across the radiator. I think it will be a be hard to keep it cool in the Aussie heat, but keep at it, and hopefully the temp gauge is off to the hot side.

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Engine cooling

Post  Inthegarage on September 6th 2015, 9:22 pm

Have you tried changing pulley size ? It may be necessary with all the other changes........

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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on September 6th 2015, 9:31 pm

Hi.

Yes have stepped the water pump pulley to a smaller unit to makeup the change on crank pulley. I think fans on the engine side with a shroud will work best when not moving.... will do the test thou on the water to engine temp also...

Rob
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  jeffgfg on September 7th 2015, 10:34 am

A couple of thoughts....does the water pump have the backing plate on it??? Second you could get an early T-bird "shorty" water pump to give you more room on the back side of your radiator. Like has been said move those other coolers to the front and the fans/shroud to the back side. Check the cfm of those fans, there are a lot of factory fans that can move a bunch of air that you can pick up at the junk yard. Good luck hope you get it straightened out!

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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 21st 2016, 8:18 am

Well, been some time from last update to try resolve overheating issue.....

Fuel Mixtures / timing checked
New ALT & Bat + wire to battery to Make sure keeps up with electricals,New Gauges, MSG, O2 Sensor & New Fans
New RAD 3 Row wide tube
New Thermo Fans
Upgraded the themo fans wiring & relays to dual 70amp setup, yes your might say overkill but going to effort of new loom for this, might as well overkill it... no hot relays now.
New and re-position Trans and PS Cooler...
Distilled Water with Redline Water Wetter.....

Have Checked Water Pump Direction
Have carried out a water pump test with spinning the WP pulley and watch it pump all water out of RAD without an issue (removed the temostat for this test)
Previously Checked via the inlet pipe WP rotor looks new fine
All new Hoses (the bottom hose has the wire to stop sucking in)
Flushed the Block and Heater Core number of times


It started to look good but then , its start to get hot... and just would not recover back to normal operating temp so still overheating :-(

Have not removed Waterpump to check if the plate was installed as suggested yet.
Have not removed Heads or Intake to check gaskets installed correctly

Still looking to remove motor- and replace pistons to lower the compression back down to run normal pump gas. not E85

If I do pull the motor down, dont find any dodgy gasket install or water pump plate is fine then how can tell of BLOCK water passages are not just screwed and the cause of the cooling issue and doing this work is just not a waste of time ?

At the point of painting the block BLUE and send it to bottom of the ocean so it doesn't scare the fish....

(tried to post number of pictures but getting Uploaded file is not valid: exceeded attachment maxsize (0 kB).)



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Last edited by bigblockfordfxstb on February 21st 2016, 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : insert photo bucket photos..... pain.)
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  dfree383 on February 21st 2016, 10:41 am

Id be looking at the tune, carb and distributor again.

The creep your are describing is over rich and advanced / retarded timing symptoms.


Last edited by dfree383 on February 21st 2016, 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  maverick on February 21st 2016, 11:04 am

I'm convinced you have an airflow problem. Normal temps at cruise and overheating at stoplights is the clue. A full coverage shroud and kickass fans are a minimum requirement here...and remember it's also important to let hot air OUT of the engine bay (while at rest) as well as pulling air in. Looking at he front end of your car, I'd say it's a bit restricted both ways.

I'm reminded of an overheating problem with a buddy's 514 powered '69 Mach 1. He screwed with various electric fans/shrouds, etc.....then gave up and slapped a Flex-a-lite fan on the water pump snout. Problem solved. The lesson here is that a decent belt driven fan and shroud will move a bunch more air than MOST electrics.
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 21st 2016, 7:02 pm

Hi Maverick,

The new rad core is 55mm thick vs the old 70mm core, and less fins per inch to allow airflow through the core itself. Regarding fitting a mechanical fan , I have (with the new rad) 57.5mm (2.24inch) clearance between the water pump shaft and the core. I did look at this option but I believe that I would need a spacer on the water pump shaft to the mechanical fan and that would not fit. No chance for shroud either with electric or mechanical fan..

The overheating occurs when moving at speed and once you pull up...

It could simply be the air is not getting through the engine bay and need to be allowed out somehow or again engine build error. (gasket install or could it be cam timing ?)

Thanks
Rob
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  rmcomprandy on February 21st 2016, 7:26 pm

Any kind of "pusher" fans with compatible shrouding is only about half the effectiveness of a similar "puller" fan arrangement.
A single larger "puller" fan of O.E.M caliber will force more air to pass; even if it is not near the center of the radiator.


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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 21st 2016, 8:01 pm

Hi RM. Yes the orignal setup was 2x12inch pusher fans because of clearance issue mounting them in puller config. The new 2 x 1240cfm x 12 inch low profile Spal fans are now setup behind the rad in puller config and i agree they pull alot more than the pusher setup. I used a cheaph flebay anometer to measure the airspeed on both sides of the rad of the new and old and the new puller config does about double the airspeed. But not sure if the problem is the like a airdam barrier being created at the front of the car and now allowing air to pass when moving or again gasket or build issue.... wonder if i could fit the anometer inside the car while driving and measure air passing through the engine bay?
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  rmcomprandy on February 22nd 2016, 5:22 pm

A lower air dam extending straight downward from the bottom of the radiator core support helps a bunch, not a lot while standing still, though.

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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 23rd 2016, 5:41 am

Hi rmcomprandy,

Has kind of got a factory air dam (thermos now mounted behind rad) but it could do with some additional work to force the air through the rad and now allow it to escape I guess.. need to do some air pressure or cfm test to make sure not caused an air wall / dam and hot air not escaping the engine bay..

I think next step is doing some pressure test to check no leak into the cooling system...


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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  maverick on February 24th 2016, 7:58 pm

You could try temporarily putting a spacer on the hood hinges to lift the rear of the hood....creating an opening near the cowl, sorta like a cowl induction hood. That would tell you if we're on the right track....If it doesn't help, just bolt the hood back down and look elsewhere.
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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  stanger68 on February 24th 2016, 10:15 pm

1-I saw someone mention this earlier about checking the actual water temp with a diif gauge. But I didn't see where you posted a result of that. Maybe i ov erlooked it. Are you sure it is actually getting too hot(does it overflow) or is it just a calibration issue with the gauges? You may just need to get a different sending unit/temp sensor to match the gauge.
2- I'm with maverick on the hood thing. I wouldn't worry with the spacers though, just pull the hood completely off and drive it around some. If that doesn't help any then you're most likely having some water flow issues somewhere.
3- Are the pulleys a matched set that you swapped?

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Re: Identify Water Pump Markings - PH366 - Overheating problems.... 460

Post  maverick on February 25th 2016, 12:37 am

I suggested leaving the hood in place to keep a similar frontal area and air entry. That way he might find that a small cowl opening or a few louvers might do the trick.
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