Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

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Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  res0rli9 on April 15th 2016, 2:47 pm


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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  Lem Evans on April 15th 2016, 3:45 pm

There was a glitch in the dyno or something was jacked up in the fuel curve of the carb on the P51 package.

It made 805 @ 6,400 RPM
Dropped to 781 @ 6,600 RPM
Jumped back to 801 @ 6,700 RPM

Peaking at 6,400 on a 521" with a 273* @ .050" intake lobe is quitting early in my opinion......6,700 would be more like it.

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  yellowhorse7 on April 15th 2016, 5:29 pm

Wonder if this will finally shut the guys with happy flow benches up Question
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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  John Myrick on April 15th 2016, 5:33 pm

yellowhorse7 wrote:Wonder if this will finally shut the guys with happy flow benches up Question

Nothing ever shuts people up
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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  Lem Evans on April 15th 2016, 7:37 pm

yellowhorse7 wrote:Wonder if this will finally shut the guys with happy flow benches up Question

Tell me who are these guys? I can't offer an opinion w/o knowing who you are speaking of.

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  yellowhorse7 on April 15th 2016, 7:46 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
yellowhorse7 wrote:Wonder if this will finally shut the guys with happy flow benches up Question

Tell me who are these guys? I can't offer an opinion w/o knowing who you are speaking of.

Just people in general. We see the argument over and over and over and over.....

"My (insert heads here) flow better than (the other head goes here) and make more power on the dyno." How many "discussions" have we had here or on the internet in general about this subject? That's why I laugh when I see things like the cylinder head pecking order at the top of the page.
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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  rmcomprandy on April 15th 2016, 11:26 pm

yellowhorse7 wrote:Wonder if this will finally shut the guys with happy flow benches up Question

Even those who have no flowbenches at all but, totally believe the propaganda that air flow AMOUNT is everything. Rolling Eyes .

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  Lem Evans on April 15th 2016, 11:55 pm

yellowhorse7 wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
yellowhorse7 wrote:Wonder if this will finally shut the guys with happy flow benches up Question

Tell me who are these guys? I can't offer an opinion w/o knowing who you are speaking of.

Just people in general. We see the argument over and over and over and over.....

"My (insert heads here) flow better than (the other head goes here) and make more power on the dyno." How many "discussions" have we had here  or on the internet in general about this subject? That's why I laugh when I see things like the cylinder head pecking order at the top of the page.

The "pecking order thing" ...I'm not finding it but I do known it was there.

That's an issue with 'sticky' deals .....a decade latter the info is just wrong.

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  Lem Evans on April 16th 2016, 12:11 am

Now that I have had time to read the whole of the mag. article ......the thing that hits me between the eyes is ..."out of the box Victor" which is a restrictor plate deal Shocked

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  John Myrick on April 16th 2016, 6:59 am

Mafia would have brought them closer
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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  rmcomprandy on April 16th 2016, 11:40 am

The hemi chamber MAY be better for HORSEPOWER than a wedge but, THIS is not a good measure of all combustion chamber differences.
Valve sizes are completely different and each head was not optimized for what it needs. This was probably a decent comparison of the two particular heads presented however, that is as far as it goes.

Good magazine fodder, though.

A head with the same size valves, (like an A460 with an older Motorsport intake for about the same carb pad height), with closer valve angle to port angle and with camshafts optimized for each, given a certain RPM range, would have been a much better test; though still not really comparable simply because there is so much more involved in an engine for different venues than horsepower.

The outcome for horsepower may have very well been the same, (although a lot closer), if using a more comparable wedge head.

However, Kaase does not manufacture an A460 head so, I understand the test and take it for what it is worth.

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  BOSS 429 on April 17th 2016, 12:48 am

rmcomprandy wrote:The hemi chamber MAY be better for HORSEPOWER than a wedge but, THIS is not a good measure of all combustion chamber differences.
Valve sizes are completely different and each head was not optimized for what it needs. This was probably a decent comparison of the two particular heads presented however, that is as far as it goes.

Good magazine fodder, though.

A head with the same size valves, (like an A460 with an older Motorsport intake for about the same carb pad height), with closer valve angle to port angle and with camshafts optimized for each, given a certain RPM range, would have been a much better test; though still not really comparable simply because there is so much more involved in an engine for different venues than horsepower.

The outcome for horsepower may have very well been the same, (although a lot closer), if using a more comparable wedge head.

However, Kaase does not manufacture an A460 head so, I understand the test and take it for what it is worth.



(The outcome for horsepower may have very well been the same, (although a lot closer), if using a more comparable wedge head.); quote


And then a better BOSS HEMI head could of been used as well
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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  Curt on April 17th 2016, 10:48 am

I think he has a back order on P51's and a supply of Hemi's. We're all smart enough to know that an equally matched test would produce equally matched results. However, I would love a late model mustang with a big Hemi in it.
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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  rmcomprandy on April 17th 2016, 11:11 am

BOSS 429 wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:The hemi chamber MAY be better for HORSEPOWER than a wedge but, THIS is not a good measure of all combustion chamber differences.
Valve sizes are completely different and each head was not optimized for what it needs. This was probably a decent comparison of the two particular heads presented however, that is as far as it goes.

Good magazine fodder, though.

A head with the same size valves, (like an A460 with an older Motorsport intake for about the same carb pad height), with closer valve angle to port angle and with camshafts optimized for each, given a certain RPM range, would have been a much better test; though still not really comparable simply because there is so much more involved in an engine for different venues than horsepower.

The outcome for horsepower may have very well been the same, (although a lot closer), if using a more comparable wedge head.

However, Kaase does not manufacture an A460 head so, I understand the test and take it for what it is worth.



(The outcome for horsepower may have very well been the same, (although a lot closer), if using a more comparable wedge head.); quote


And then a better BOSS HEMI head could of been used as well

A better hemi head would not have made a good test for comparing combustion chamber / valve arrangement; the heads being most comparable would.

That was the point I was trying to make.


Last edited by rmcomprandy on April 17th 2016, 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  dfree383 on April 17th 2016, 11:18 am

yellowhorse7 wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
yellowhorse7 wrote:Wonder if this will finally shut the guys with happy flow benches up Question

Tell me who are these guys? I can't offer an opinion w/o knowing who you are speaking of.

Just people in general. We see the argument over and over and over and over.....

"My (insert heads here) flow better than (the other head goes here) and make more power on the dyno." How many "discussions" have we had here  or on the internet in general about this subject? That's why I laugh when I see things like the cylinder head pecking order at the top of the page.

Hemi vs Wedge isn't a fair comparison of flow......

And as far as flow bench numbers a 420 cfm wedge head will make more power than a 350 cfm head of the same type and valve location.
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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  BOSS 429 on April 17th 2016, 8:00 pm

lol to this whole thread,


all Jon did was show the hemi as being better, and no one likes to hear that.

some cant handle the truth


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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  BOSS 429 on April 17th 2016, 8:03 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:The hemi chamber MAY be better for HORSEPOWER than a wedge but, THIS is not a good measure of all combustion chamber differences.
Valve sizes are completely different and each head was not optimized for what it needs. This was probably a decent comparison of the two particular heads presented however, that is as far as it goes.

Good magazine fodder, though.

A head with the same size valves, (like an A460 with an older Motorsport intake for about the same carb pad height), with closer valve angle to port angle and with camshafts optimized for each, given a certain RPM range, would have been a much better test; though still not really comparable simply because there is so much more involved in an engine for different venues than horsepower.

The outcome for horsepower may have very well been the same, (although a lot closer), if using a more comparable wedge head.

However, Kaase does not manufacture an A460 head so, I understand the test and take it for what it is worth.



(The outcome for horsepower may have very well been the same, (although a lot closer), if using a more comparable wedge head.); quote


And then a better BOSS HEMI head could of been used as well

A better hemi head would not have made a good test for comparing combustion chamber / valve arrangement; the heads being most comparable would.

That was the point I was trying to make.







You said >more comparable wedge head, whats your idea of a more comparable wedge head then?


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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  Lem Evans on April 17th 2016, 9:08 pm

"lol to this whole thread"

Rich, It matters not to me that you are laughing at me but, I am amused that you can not see that the natural HP spread between was skewed by manifolding.  

While the BOSS cylinder head is the better architecture compared to a CJ style head with the  production low inlets and exits, it is my opinion that other things are not equal and the actual spread is not 109 HP.

I have already spoken to the un-ported Victor on the inlet side.

Please bother to look at the headers: The P51 engine had a very nice set of 4 into one black painted headers - the Boss engine headers were 4-2-1 merge coated [left over from engine masters testing I suspect] which puts a butt load of tq in an engine & don't seem to hurt the power either.

I'm sure Jon used the best stuff he had available......I'm just saying the 'stuff' for the P51 unit was not as highly developed.

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  FalconEh on April 17th 2016, 10:21 pm

cheers The die hard followers of Super Chevy magazine can rest assured that only the BOSS 9 Fords are to be reckoned with. Laughing
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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  wayney on April 17th 2016, 10:33 pm

no question the boss heads make more power, but from 4600 to almost 6000 rpm there is only about a 30hp difference .

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  rmcomprandy on April 17th 2016, 10:56 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:

A head with the same size valves, (like an A460 with an older Motorsport intake for about the same carb pad height), with having closer to the same valve angle to port angle and with camshafts optimized for each, given a certain RPM range, would have been a much better test


You said >more comparable wedge head,   whats your idea of a more comparable wedge head then?

Did you actually read the entire post you had previously quoted...?
It was all pretty much spelled out there.

The magazine article is telling readers that this is a "level playing field" test of the two TYPES of combustion chamber / valve placement criteria and it certainly is not. This test is NOT truth to that affect. It simply is a test between THOSE TWO heads. [/quote]

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  Carl on April 18th 2016, 9:24 pm

so, just to recap.....exhaust flow doesn't matter.....intake flow was similar....the head with significantly more exhaust flow made significantly more power.



Neutral

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  Lem Evans on April 18th 2016, 10:27 pm

Carl wrote:so, just to recap.....exhaust flow doesn't matter.....intake flow was similar....the head with significantly more exhaust flow made significantly more power.



Neutral

The extra 17 or whatever flow on the intake is a big deal  at that performance level...in my opinion.

The talk about 'flow' is sometimes a diversion.... which head had the biggest valves?  Biggest issue would be on the intake side.....but......the 1.76" P51 aint gonna get any help from the 7* intake/exh split cam that was in that deal.

A lesser exh. with a decent  shape can be camed to....and it aint 7*.

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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  BOSS 429 on April 19th 2016, 9:53 am

Lem Evans wrote:"lol to this whole thread"

Rich, It matters not to me that you are laughing at me but, I am amused that you can not see that the natural HP spread between was skewed by manifolding.  

While the BOSS cylinder head is the better architecture compared to a CJ style head with the  production low inlets and exits, it is my opinion that other things are not equal and the actual spread is not 109 HP.

I have already spoken to the un-ported Victor on the inlet side.

Please bother to look at the headers: The P51 engine had a very nice set of 4 into one black painted headers - the Boss engine headers were 4-2-1 merge coated [left over from engine masters testing I suspect] which puts a butt load of tq in an engine & don't seem to hurt the power either.

I'm sure Jon used the best stuff he had available......I'm just saying the 'stuff' for the P51 unit was not as highly developed.



LOLing at you ? No LOL at all the boards where people are making excuses about this test .
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Re: Hemi vs. Wedge Shootout:

Post  BOSS 429 on April 19th 2016, 9:58 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:

A head with the same size valves, (like an A460 with an older Motorsport intake for about the same carb pad height), with having closer to the same valve angle to port angle and with camshafts optimized for each, given a certain RPM range, would have been a much better test


You said >more comparable wedge head,   whats your idea of a more comparable wedge head then?

Did you actually read the entire post you had previously quoted...?
It was all pretty much spelled out there.

The magazine article is telling readers that this is a "level playing field" test of the two TYPES of combustion chamber / valve placement criteria and it certainly is not. This test is NOT truth to that affect. It simply is a test between THOSE TWO heads.
[/quote]









You said >more comparable wedge head, whats your idea of a more comparable wedge head then?[/quote]

/\ this is what I asked, incase you missed it?






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