How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

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How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  75truck on May 7th 2016, 10:31 pm

I am building a 429 semi hi performance engine.  Flat tops, 10:1, torquer cam.  From all of the discussions on oil pump choices I have decided to go with the stock type oil pump.

I have done all of the mods to the block that are suggested and am looking for advice for enhancing the stock type oil pump.

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I'm thinking that i need to blend the  oil pump outlet to match the  9/16" oil inlet on the block that I enlarged.

easL.

I will probably apply dry film lubricant from Techline Coatings to the gears and internal shaft.

Any other ideas?

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  paperman on May 8th 2016, 8:08 am

If you didnt buy it yet check out. http://home.earthlink.net/~kaneofthenation/highflowdynamics/id1.html

I do not know what has been done to the pumps but he is a trusted member of the site.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  DaveMcLain on May 8th 2016, 8:35 am

Remove the pump from the box, inspect it and bolt it onto the engine it needs zero modifications.

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Maybe I'm thinking too hard.

Post  75truck on May 8th 2016, 10:23 am

I'm a tinkerer at heart. Can't leave it alone.

However - I'm thinking boosting the pressure slightly. I have heard that adding 1 or 2 washers to the spring will do just that?

And with budget constraints I did not go with the Kane pump.

Thanks for all of your replies.

Bob - Tucson
75-Ford SuperCab - Shortbed - Weekend driver

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  jeffgfg on May 8th 2016, 10:33 am

Paul Kane offers a kit to bump up the pressure too, besides complete pumps.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  rmcomprandy on May 8th 2016, 10:53 am

Simply install a high pressure relief spring and cover plug to a standard volume pump.

That is all.

Other pumps may have more operations performed by professional craftsmen who are aware of what can help and what is just cosmetic.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  Doug Rahn on May 8th 2016, 12:03 pm

Personally if I where you I would wait and save up the money to buy a Kasse pump for the simple fact you never have to worry about the pump snapping off. Even in performance street builds it’s been known to happen. If you do use a stock pump I would at least disassemble it and smooth out the rough casting on the web. The rough casting edge is where a crack will start! And as you stated, port matching the outlet would be a plus on the oil flow.

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Now that's what I'm looking for!

Post  75truck on May 8th 2016, 12:33 pm

Thank you all - I'll do the casting smoothing.

Where do I get a high pressure spring? Or do I just shim the stock one?

Bob

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  rmcomprandy on May 8th 2016, 2:01 pm

75truck wrote:Thank you all - I'll do the casting smoothing.

Where do I get a high pressure spring? Or do I just shim the stock one?

Bob

Ford Racing used to offer a relief spring kit, (M-6670-A351),  but, not anymore so, Total Performance in Clinton Township, Michigan bought the remaining stock ... over 1,000 of 'em.

Send me 10 bucks and 4.80 flat rate mail and I'll go get one for you.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  bbf-falcon on May 8th 2016, 10:19 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
75truck wrote:Thank you all - I'll do the casting smoothing.

Where do I get a high pressure spring? Or do I just shim the stock one?

Bob

Ford Racing used to offer a relief spring kit, (M-6670-A351),  but, not anymore so, Total Performance in Clinton Township, Michigan bought the remaining stock ... over 1,000 of 'em.

Send me 10 bucks and 4.80 flat rate mail and I'll go get one for you.

Very Happy Wink

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  DaveMcLain on May 9th 2016, 8:24 am

Why do you think it needs more pressure? How will this do anything to help the engine?

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  rmcomprandy on May 9th 2016, 9:33 am

DaveMcLain wrote:Why do you think it needs more pressure?  How will this do anything to help the engine?

55 pounds will not usually be enough for an engine which is used aggressively at a higher RPM..

Why did the factory Cobra Jet pumps come with a higher pressure spring...?

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  paperman on May 9th 2016, 9:39 am

Can one accurately set the pressure on the bench? If there was a test stand built to drive the pump in a sump of oil, would dead heading the pump give an accurate representation of the pressure the system would see in a running engine? I can see it being an arduous task of setting the pump for those of use without a dyno, test stand or open chassis car if you need to drop the pan for each adjustment.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  rmcomprandy on May 9th 2016, 9:48 am

paperman wrote:Can one accurately set the pressure on the bench?  If there was a test stand built to drive the pump in a sump of oil, would dead heading the pump give an accurate representation of the pressure the system would see in a running engine?  I can see it being an arduous task of setting the pump for those of use without a dyno, test stand or open chassis car if you need to drop the pan for each adjustment.  

YES ... one can set or record the by-pass valve opening pressure on a bench by greatly restricting the output oil flow, (not deadheading it), and operating the pump with oil.  
Pressure may increase further when the by-pass just can't pass enough volume itself which does not happen very often.

Most engine builders who have been in the business for years have made or bought their own oil pump test unit.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  DaveMcLain on May 9th 2016, 10:21 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:Why do you think it needs more pressure?  How will this do anything to help the engine?

55 pounds will not usually be enough for an engine which is used aggressively at a higher RPM..

Why did the factory Cobra Jet pumps come with a higher pressure spring...?

Have you run one of these Melling pumps on the recently? They make a LOT more pressure than that with hot oil. Recently I had a 547 that had more than 55psi hot idle pressure, about 85psi rev-ed up. That puts the cold start pressure up to about 100psi which I think it pretty darn high. Totally stock M84 pump straight out of the box.


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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  rmcomprandy on May 9th 2016, 12:16 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:

55 pounds will not usually be enough for an engine which is used aggressively at a higher RPM..

Why did the factory Cobra Jet pumps come with a higher pressure spring...?

Have you run one of these Melling pumps on the recently?  They make a LOT more pressure than that with hot oil.  Recently I had a 547 that had more than 55psi hot idle pressure, about 85psi rev-ed up.  That puts the cold start pressure up to about 100psi which I think it pretty darn high.  Totally stock M84 pump straight out of the box.  

Dave, I test at least 5 of these M-84D pumps every month and only the high volume pumps I have tested will produce that much pressure at by-pass opening. An M-84 is a different pump.

 [/quote]


Last edited by rmcomprandy on May 9th 2016, 3:56 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  IDT-572 on May 9th 2016, 12:23 pm

I am seeing more than 55 lbs on all the ones I have used here lately. (with stock type clearances)

I put the pan on with a few bolts with the long block done and put oil in it and run the pump with a good 7 amp 750 rpm drill and just check the pressure. Most are over 80 lb with street clearances with a standard volume M-84 pump.

With more loose race clearances I will check it and shim the spring to the pressure I want. 80 -85 cold with the drill will be around 70-75 hot in the car.

On a stock build I take them apart look them over, smooth any ruff castings and message the passage, wash them, pour oil in them and put them on.

A Milwaukee 1/2 inch hole shooter will blow a FL1A filter completely off the engine if the relief valve is stuck shut.............. Twisted Evil Rolling Eyes
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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  DaveMcLain on May 9th 2016, 1:49 pm

Isn't the D pump the same as the M84 except for how the pickup mounts? I was looking around for a video showing one running I know I have one somewhere... For what its worth just the other day I was running a 351C which uses the M84-A pump and on a fast idle cold start, 95psi so they seem to behave similarly. The 351W I had before that was right at 60lbs hot at 3000rpm and idled at 45 which should be fine. It seems like the pressure is really jacked up on the Melling pumps for the 351C or the big block from what I've seen.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  Paul Kane on May 9th 2016, 1:55 pm

75truck wrote:I am building a 429 semi hi performance engine.  Flat tops, 10:1, torquer cam.  From all of the discussions on oil pump choices I have decided to go with the stock type oil pump.

I have done all of the mods to the block that are suggested and am looking for advice for enhancing the stock type oil pump.
For the engine that you describe, you don't need to do much of anything--those block mods were presented for the building of 4-figure HP engines while using stock blocks.  I almost always tell people building engines such as yours that when it comes to the block oiling mods outlined on the Technical Pages of our website that if they really feel the "need" to execute them then the single-most significant one is enlarging the pump-to-filter pad gallery from 1/2-inch to 9/16-inch.

75truck wrote:I'm thinking that i need to blend the  oil pump outlet to match the  9/16" oil inlet on the block that I enlarged.
For your engine combo, don't worry that the bone stock M84D has a 1/2-inch exit gallery...not so say that enlarging it (to match the block) won't change dynamics technically speaking but it's irrelevant and essentially immeasurable in your particular build application.

75truck wrote:I will probably apply dry film lubricant from Techline Coatings to the gears and internal shaft.
Absolute waste of time and money, and I advise against it.

75truck wrote:Any other ideas?
There are further mods that may be performed deeper inside the oil pump which improve its efficiency but for what sounds like a 400 hp build you need not execute them.

Compared to the retail price of a bone stock M84D, the price of our standard volume Street/Strip pump is more cost effective than the time and labor of doing your own presumptive modifications.  Of course, if you want to tear your own pump apart because you enjoy hot rodding your own engine parts then have at it.
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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  rmcomprandy on May 9th 2016, 4:01 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:Isn't the D pump the same as the M84 except for how the pickup mounts?  I was looking around for a video showing one running I know I have one somewhere...  For what its worth just the other day I was running a 351C which uses the M84-A pump and on a fast idle cold start, 95psi so they seem to behave similarly.  The 351W I had before that was right at 60lbs hot at 3000rpm and idled at 45 which should be fine.  It seems like the pressure is really jacked up on the Melling pumps for the 351C or the big block from what I've seen.  

Maybe that is true with the Melling brand pumps.  The ones I test come from Ford Motor Company truck parts, (I know there is a dimple in the middle of the plug over the spring), and I thought Melling produced these pumps but, maybe not.

OR ... maybe differently.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  DaveMcLain on May 9th 2016, 8:15 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:Isn't the D pump the same as the M84 except for how the pickup mounts?  I was looking around for a video showing one running I know I have one somewhere...  For what its worth just the other day I was running a 351C which uses the M84-A pump and on a fast idle cold start, 95psi so they seem to behave similarly.  The 351W I had before that was right at 60lbs hot at 3000rpm and idled at 45 which should be fine.  It seems like the pressure is really jacked up on the Melling pumps for the 351C or the big block from what I've seen.  

Maybe that is true with the Melling brand pumps.  The ones I test come from Ford Motor Company truck parts, (I know there is a dimple in the middle of the plug over the spring), and I thought Melling produced these pumps but, maybe not.

OR ... maybe differently.

I bet that's what it is or maybe the ones from Ford were made a while ago.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  Lem Evans on May 9th 2016, 8:35 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
75truck wrote:Thank you all - I'll do the casting smoothing.

Where do I get a high pressure spring? Or do I just shim the stock one?

Bob

Ford Racing used to offer a relief spring kit, (M-6670-A351),  but, not anymore so, Total Performance in Clinton Township, Michigan bought the remaining stock ... over 1,000 of 'em.

Send me 10 bucks and 4.80 flat rate mail and I'll go get one for you.

That kit has the only 'dimpled' plug that I've seen.

I really liked that kit....it gave a nice boost to the pressure w/o getting crazy pressure like the Moroso/Roush spring.

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  Paul Kane on May 9th 2016, 10:08 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:Isn't the D pump the same as the M84 except for how the pickup mounts?
Over here, the M84 style pumps that come out or OEM engine tear downs and the new Melling M84D's that go into builds have different springs between them. Differences in the inlet passages as well. The output pressure curve will slightly differ between the two.

I don't know for sure whether the brand new Melling M84's have the same spring as the Melling M84D or not but it's been my experience thus far that, basically, the Melling front sump and rear sump pumps use completely different springs between them (because of the differing bypass plug location between the two pump body designs).

Now, the Dana line of pumps (they're still out there on shelves) at first glance may appear identical to the Melling pumps but the Dana as-cast bodies and pump body/spring combo (in some cases) are actually quite a different animal to the trained eye as compared to the Melling.  The end result (output pressure) is similar to Melling.
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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  rmcomprandy on May 9th 2016, 10:27 pm

Paul,
When I disassemble these pumps it has a spring which is bright pink in color. The old Motorsport kits have a spring which is brown in color and the wire diameter is about 3 thou bigger diameter with about one less coil; (22 I believe). THAT spring produces about 85 to 90 pounds output on the test fixture.

I have had some other 84 A,B and D pumps apart which have a spring which is red in color and seems to be in the middle of those two other springs. Are these the Dana pumps you speak about...?

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Re: How to modify a M-84D Meling standard oil pump?

Post  Paul Kane on May 10th 2016, 12:46 pm

The Melling pumps I work with are all bolt-on pickup types, front or rear sump.  These days, the Melling rear sump pumps with bolt-on pickup seem to have the red spring, and the Melling front sump pumps with bolt-on pickup seem to have a blue-grey spring (as I like to call it).

I remember that brown spring you brought up but never measured the brown spring's wire diameter, coil diameter, OAL, or put it on a spring tester.  It does make sense that it would be stiffer, I think mostly due to its having fewer windings per inch.

I've measured wire diameter as well on the other springs I come across and concluded the wire diameter differences observed are nominal and could be just a matter the dimensional tolerance of the raw spring wire. By the way I found about the same dimensional variation with coil diameter.

The M84D type pump produced by Dana (which is also private labeled as a Clevite 601-1012) has a white spring in it.  To me it looks like the white spring that I see in the press-in pickup pumps in the early 385 Series engines (maybe Dana had the pump contract in the early days?).  But I haven't taken the rear sump Dana pump's white spring to the valve spring tester to see just what it is. As I recall, windings per inch of the white spring varied by 1 coil compared to the Melling red spring (the white had 1 more coil per inch than the Melling red).  The free-standing length of the white spring is 3.05" nominal, which is about about .100" less than the free-standing length of the Melling red spring.

Those are the pumps and springs I typcially work with. Since we offer a Shim Kit we can already configure output pressure pretty much wherever we want with these springs by way of the shims, and set peak pressure as high as should ever be necessary without reaching coil bind.

By the way whereas the M84D has a 1/2-inch exit gallery (just like all the production pumps found in the OEM production engines), interestingly the Dana standard volume rear sump (M84D equivalent) has a 9/16" exit gallery as cast.
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