small big block or big small block

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  Hardy on June 3rd 2016, 10:03 pm

what about a Windsor with High Ports? Would a stock valve angle Cleveland really be much better?

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  dfree383 on June 3rd 2016, 10:06 pm

Hardy wrote:what about a Windsor with High Ports?  Would a stock valve angle Cleveland really be much better?
simple answer yes, plus their is a decent tunnel ram avaliable.
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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  whitefield on June 3rd 2016, 10:39 pm

All of these guys are good at what they do and have many years of hands on experience with engines . So with that said the rules have loop holes to make a 429 BBF or a 351 C or W engine work and be a front runner . study
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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  Super Snake Steve on June 3rd 2016, 11:11 pm

there are some guys on here selling the big truck 429 all steel crank just turn the snout down to passenger car size and it will be good for thousands of horse power

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 3rd 2016, 11:52 pm

I just read ALL the rules at WWW.SOUTHEASTGASSERS.COM and there is NOTHING in the engine rules like what was told here.

No canted valve small block heads  unless they factory Ford cast iron Heads,

There is no cubic inch limitation at all; it is a "total weight per cubic inch rule".

Valve angles or location do NOT need to be as O.E.M. produced however, there is a weight penalty if they are different.

"FE" Ford engines and "W" Chevrolet engines get a better weight break than any other combination.

It says No Dominator carbs but, says absolutely NOTHING about must use 660 carbs on a tunnel ram. Carbs must LOOK period correct.

There is a weight break for :period correct" fuel injection.

NO sheet metal intakes and all manifolds must have been readily available before 1967 and may not be externally modified.

I don't mind spending the time to help somebody but, when they blatantly don't tell the truth about that particular situation and skew things to suit their own personal situation, NOT Mad  ... They should be totally UP-FRONT about it.

This is what is happening here. Rolling Eyes

A 406, dual quad, FE ford could be killer.

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small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on June 4th 2016, 8:07 am

Did you read the C/Gas rules or just the A/Gas rules ? The C/Gas rules clearly states 660 max on a dual carb set up. Did you see the rules of the game video that the Southeast Gassers
put out about carbs? It was narrated by Mitch Stott former Pro Mod world champion. Before you call someone a liar maybe you should be sure of all of the facts.
I have been on the phone with Quain Stott another Pro Mod world champion and the founder and director of the Southeast Gassers many times discussing engine combos
and the non stock valve angles are being discussed .
I have sent him a list of available 385 heads and he is going to give me the o.k. on which head is acceptable to run in the series.
Should I have known how much grief I would have to take over trying to get information. I would have just figured it out on my own.
Forget the carb rule already,I am going to Alky Digger and get a Hilborn stack injection. That should give me all off the cfm needed to run any size motor should I decide to move up to a stroker in the future.
I apologize to the very smart people who frequent this site if I have offended anyone.

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 4th 2016, 11:55 am

The A/Gas rules was where the download stopped on that web page you gave.
Is there another location for more classes with different rules...?
Sorry for not knowing the different classes ... this type scenario happens so often it can get really frustrating.

AND ... I never said you were a liar, (you read into that, too), but, did say you were not giving us all true facts.

I made a phone call and was sent a download of the C/Gas rules.
T
They are pretty much the same with just a few exceptions. Although, no early Mopar Hemi's are on this engine list.
There still is no limitation on engine cubic inch size. It is still a weight per cubic inch class.
Aluminum blocks, unless original, are not allowed.

YES ... Valve angles must remain as O.E.M. produced.

YES ... dual quads are limited to 660 cfm old Holley appearing with side hung float bowls, UNLESS they are Rochester carbs which can be higher flowing.

Canted valve small block engines must use O.E.M. cast iron heads ... EXCEPT if another FORD head has been approved.
Aluminum heads for ANY engine must be approved.

The "FE" Ford, "Y" block Ford, "W" series Chevrolet, any old style Pontiac, Olds, Buick, or Cadillac engines are given a full 1/2 pound weight break .
However, IF the car does not run under 6.50 seconds in the eighth mile there is no class weight break.

There is a definite ambiguous rule which is totally impossible
External appearance of the engine must look like 1967 or earlier ... THE 385 series Ford big block was not even available before 1967; yet is allowed.

Geez ... Kaase's former Engine Masters, 400 inch "Y" block Ford, (now for sale), is well over 700 horsepower with a single 4 barrel although it uses a small block Chevy intake manifold so, a tunnel ram with 660's could certainly be used for probably almost 750 horsepower; EXCEPT THE VALVE ANGLES HAVE BEEN CHANGED.

EDIT: Personally, I would still lean toward a dual-quad, "FE" Ford using a Tunnel-Port or a Tunnel-Wedge.  Either class rules are so favorable to that engine family.
406 times 7.5 pounds is 3,045 pounds running weight. Era correct mechanical stack fuel injection is another 100 pounds less.


Last edited by rmcomprandy on June 4th 2016, 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 4th 2016, 1:00 pm

If you are just stuck on the mindset of a 385 series engine then Trick Flow "325" heads, (they are the 290 heads which have been manufacturer CNC ported), with as high a compression ratio as your gasoline can withstand, a port matched Weiand Hi-Ram manifold, (or port matched Offenhauser "Turbo-Thrust"), with a matched roller cam and valve train will be your best option with a 429 engine.

ERA correct IR mechanical fuel injection will not come close to the power making ability of a tunnel-ram; the butterfly on each port is way too small if it is indeed period correct.
Is not one of the rules; non-oxygenated GASOLINE ONLY...?

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  Hardy on June 4th 2016, 4:13 pm

dfree383 wrote:
Hardy wrote:what about a Windsor with High Ports?  Would a stock valve angle Cleveland really be much better?
simple answer yes, plus their is a decent tunnel ram avaliable.

Ok. I've seen from pretty impressive running High Port deals around so I was curious. The manifold is definitely an issue though.

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  Hardy on June 4th 2016, 4:14 pm

double post

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  dfree383 on June 4th 2016, 6:58 pm

Hardy wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Hardy wrote:what about a Windsor with High Ports?  Would a stock valve angle Cleveland really be much better?
simple answer yes, plus their is a decent tunnel ram avaliable.

Ok.  I've seen from pretty impressive running High Port deals around so I was curious.  The manifold is definitely an issue though.

That's one of the reasons a Cleveland would be my choice.

Build a smaller engine in the 380" range, with well worked factory iron Cleveland heads.

Weiand TR with the 2x660's and let it eat

3000 pound car and 600-700hp buzz bomb and it won't be too nose heavy.

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small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on June 4th 2016, 8:18 pm

Ijust found a std bore 4 bolt 351 Cleveland block. It has a standard crank. Thinking your suggestions might lead me in that direction, weighing options.

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  FalconEh on June 4th 2016, 9:00 pm

southcross wrote: Ijust found a std bore 4 bolt 351 Cleveland block. It has a standard crank. Thinking your suggestions might lead me in that direction, weighing options.

I have been running them for over 30 years, I have a street car now that was assembled with left over parts mostly, and spins easily to 8500 without float, and it loves nitrous which you can't use but I will say std bore 4-bolt blocks have been hard to find in these parts for years and I am running out so I made the change.
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small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on June 7th 2016, 11:45 am

Heard back from Southeast Gassers about 385 heads. Edelbrock Victor #61699, FMS-M-6049-SCJB , AFR #3820 or any of 3800 series heads are legal.
Which head is best for 521 cu.in. motor ? Porting is permitted just no externally visable welding.
Decided to take advantage of the 385 blocks ability to go big. 521 at 6.0 lbs per cubic inch puts the car at a reasonable 3126 lbs. in the A/Gas class.
I don't want to sound wishy-washy on this build, but it takes a plan and sticking to the plan. Can only afford to build it one way.
Still planning on a tunnel ram and two 4150 style carbs. Getting a ruling on inline or sideways and cfm for A/Gas.
C/Gas has the 8.0 lbs per cubic inch which makes the car too heavy.

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on June 7th 2016, 11:09 pm

southcross wrote: Heard back from Southeast Gassers about 385 heads. Edelbrock Victor #61699, FMS-M-6049-SCJB , AFR #3820 or any of 3800 series heads are legal.
 Which head is best for 521 cu.in. motor ? Porting is permitted just no externally visable welding.
  Decided to take advantage of the 385 blocks ability to go big. 521 at 6.0 lbs per cubic inch puts the car at a reasonable 3126 lbs. in the A/Gas class.
  I don't want to sound wishy-washy on this build, but it takes a plan and sticking to the plan. Can only afford to build it one way.
  Still planning on a tunnel ram and two 4150 style carbs. Getting a ruling on inline or sideways and cfm for A/Gas.
  C/Gas has the 8.0 lbs per cubic inch which makes the car too heavy.
   

What is the weight of your car...? Your car is heavier that 3,470 pounds in C/gas with a 434 ...?

These guys who are making those rules have absolutely no idea what they are doing when it comes to a big block Ford engine.

The AFR heads are more advantageous by a LOT  (Be aware that piston valve notches will need revised valve angles and locations).

Not even mentioning the totally "replacement" Trick Flow heads, (stock valve angle, locations and all),  is just plain uneducated but, it is their "sand box".

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small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on July 5th 2016, 7:48 am

I made my decision after much research I purchased a 71 Lincoln block. It came with D3VE heads. I am planning on making it a 501 . The rules state less than stock valve angle
is 6.0 lbs per cubic in. Stock valve angle heads are 5.5 lbs. with 100 lbs. weight break for oem cast heads.
Who makes the best stock valve angle aluminum heads ? Is it worth the 100 lbs to max port the iron heads ? Or do I add the extra weight and go with non stock valve angle heads?
They are going to inline only carbs on tunnel rams for 2017 . Would I be better off with victor intake and 1000 cfm holley? Or inline holleys on tunnel ram. No dominator carbs.
I can run mechanical stack injection and get another weight break.
Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  rmcomprandy on July 5th 2016, 9:40 am

For factory cast iron heads, get a pair of Cobra Jet heads or at least some Police Interceptor heads.

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  supervel45 on July 5th 2016, 12:16 pm


If they allow that 408 M/Block in that is one stout Combo. Kasse and Sam cleaned house at EMC two years straight until the rules changed, I believe. I would think all the Ford V8's mentioned would be Competitive but, the 408 335 series is pretty light and that may help it's case?

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  Calypso on July 5th 2016, 3:08 pm

southcross wrote:  I made my decision after much research I purchased a 71 Lincoln block. It came with D3VE heads. I am planning on making it a 501 . The rules state less than stock valve angle
 is 6.0 lbs per cubic in. Stock valve angle heads are 5.5 lbs. with 100 lbs. weight break for oem cast heads.
  Who makes the best stock valve angle aluminum heads ? Is it worth the 100 lbs to max port the iron heads ?  Or do I add the extra weight and go with non stock valve angle heads?
   They are going to inline only carbs on tunnel rams for 2017 . Would I be better off with victor intake and 1000 cfm holley? Or inline holleys on tunnel ram. No dominator carbs.
 I can run mechanical stack injection and get another weight break.
  Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks

BLP Little Bo would equal 1050 Dominator in flow with 4150 footprint. Wouldn't leave much on the table and would make tuning simpler. Would lose in period looks.

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  supervel45 on July 5th 2016, 3:26 pm

A couple of 660's with down leg boosters would hit pretty hard if allowed. Do they measure the throttle blades and venturi's? Might have a little room there also if they are not real strict?

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small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on July 5th 2016, 4:02 pm

4224 holleys are legal . Holley has a an out of production 850 that looks like a 4224 if I could find a pair. Inline carbs are the problem on a tunnel ram . If I could make some offset adapters I could run bigger carbs. The bigger carbs are legal in A/Gas only.
There is talk about a B/Gas class at 7.00 lbs per cubic in ,but dual 660's will be max carbs on tunnel rams.

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  gt350hr on July 5th 2016, 6:09 pm

850 center squirters are list #4223. Change them to square bowls and they will fit on a Weiand tunnel ram.

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  supervel45 on July 5th 2016, 10:02 pm

southcross wrote:4224 holleys are legal . Holley has a an out of production 850 that looks like a 4224 if I could find a pair. Inline carbs are the problem on a tunnel ram . If I could make some offset adapters I could run bigger carbs. The bigger carbs are legal in A/Gas only.
 There is talk about a B/Gas class at 7.00 lbs per cubic in ,but dual 660's will be max carbs on tunnel rams.

They are 4223S and I have a pair but, you would likely have to pry them out my cold dead hands. I did have them on FleeBay a couple of weeks but, no bids so they are at the plating shop and the front float bowls at the Lazer Engraving shop for custom logo's. You likely don't want to hear the price and I am going to likely mount them sideways on my Blue Thunder intake for my larger engine soon. They are center hung dual metering block Center Squirters 1969 and 1970 vintage.

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Re: small big block or big small block

Post  supervel45 on July 5th 2016, 10:07 pm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162092502952?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Call this guy and get his 4223S's if you want some they are at a good price and you can likely sell the BBC Boat Anchor intake for a decent price. They look pretty good and I am tempted to grab them myself.

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small big block or big small block

Post  southcross on July 5th 2016, 11:13 pm

Thanks for the lead on the carbs. I got a buddy that runs a big block,maybe he will buy the intake.

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