AFR headed builds

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  Lem Evans on October 25th 2016, 11:26 am

I'd use a 18 bolt head then.

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  rmcomprandy on October 25th 2016, 6:57 pm

Lem Evans wrote:I'd use a 18 bolt head then.

He was interested in using a D9 block which is absolutely senseless for the type of build he wants;
18 head bolt heads become 14 bolt heads on a production block machined for the extra 4.

It is good that he bought a decent block to start.

Use the 18 bolt heads.

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  Lem Evans on October 25th 2016, 7:09 pm

What's the application for this engine?

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  octanehuffer on October 25th 2016, 7:23 pm

Street use/drag race/grocery getter/drag week/ I'm on a budget and wanted to originally pit a complete forged setup in my D9 block and run around with just efi for now until a couple years from now toss on a power adder and swap out the block then.... but a cash deal at my local ford store was wayyyyy to good to pass up
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  Lem Evans on October 25th 2016, 7:32 pm

Sorry, but 20# of boost and budget do not go together.....unless the budget is large.

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  octanehuffer on October 25th 2016, 7:41 pm

I don't intend to have it on full at all times. Just track events and the occasional mile long burnout to shut the LS group up. Realistically though desire 1400 lbs of torque at most times. Just because.
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  Lem Evans on October 25th 2016, 7:50 pm

Interesting.

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  dfree383 on October 25th 2016, 9:32 pm

octanehuffer wrote:I don't intend to have it on full at all times. Just track events and the occasional mile long burnout to shut the LS group up. Realistically though desire 1400 lbs of torque at most times. Just because.

That's no budget build bro
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  octanehuffer on October 25th 2016, 11:47 pm

Sorry. False advertising.
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  octanehuffer on October 31st 2016, 2:57 pm

Continuing the search for which heads to run. I'm trying to investigate the TFS A460 heads and trying to call them to discuss which set they would recommend. 340 or 360.
Spoke with AFR again and they are entirely confident that with an o ringed deck, the heads will hold 20 lbs, but they arnt certain wether or not the 280 heads will reach my goals. I really don't have goals but just looking to make over 1500. I have no idea where the parts get me, I just want over 1400lbs if torque on tap. I'll be ordering the stroker setup once I decide which head to go with.
Besides deburring casting flash and smoothing out the valley floor for oil drain back, is there any prep I need to do to the A460 block? Going roller cam bearings too
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  IDT-572 on October 31st 2016, 5:03 pm

I think from reading this thread and the questions asked, you may want to think about just going to one of our engine builders on here, and let them build it and make sure it's done correctly.

At 1500 hp and 1400ft lb of tq you better know what your doing.

I have been on this site and the old one for years and have seen these type questions asked before and the project usually end very badly.

Just saying.........
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  Scott Foxwell on October 31st 2016, 5:06 pm

IDT-572 wrote:I think from reading this thread and the questions asked, you may want to think about just going to one of our engine builders on here, and let them build it and make sure it's done correctly.

At 1500 hp and 1400ft lb of tq you better know what your doing.

I have been on this site and the old one for years and have seen these type questions asked before and the project usually end very badly.

Just saying.........
I'm going to agree 100%.

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  octanehuffer on October 31st 2016, 5:38 pm

I'm trying to compile parts to bring to my engine builder and the less prep work he has to do, the cheaper it will be. Has been in the past. This is far from my first engine build, but its difficult getting any bbf info in my parts.
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  octanehuffer on November 4th 2016, 12:24 pm

Alright. Getting more of this figured out. Settled on TFS A460 340cc 87cc heads. Going with an all forged setup with Lunati 4.160 crank tool steel pins, diamond pistons Lunati rods. Looking for some in put as to what size pistons to get to maximize to heads in reference to unshrouding and keeping velocity up. They are a 2.3" valve
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  rmcomprandy on November 4th 2016, 11:24 pm

octanehuffer wrote:Alright. Getting more of this figured out. Settled on TFS A460 340cc 87cc heads. Going with an all forged setup with Lunati 4.160 crank tool steel pins, diamond pistons Lunati rods. Looking for some in put as to what size pistons to get to maximize to heads in reference to unshrouding and keeping velocity up. They are a 2.3" valve

Most engine builders I know personally and deal with on a regular basis would not even put your stuff together.
They want to use things THEY are familiar with and know whatever to expect from those parts on high-end stuff and would only accept using SOME basic things like the block and maybe heads.
In order to learn and KNOW how other parts will fit and work together will take that builder more time and labor than it normally would ... which in most places, that extra time is not free.
I am sure there are some who will oblige you; usually you'll get what you pay for.

I think you should first try to take a couple eggs & sausage to your friendly corner family restaurant and see if they will cook them for you at a reduced price. That is about what you are trying to do here.

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  octanehuffer on November 5th 2016, 6:41 am

Don't know what the big deal is. Spoke with my engine builder the other day to touch base with him since it's been about 5 years. I ran over the details and asked what parts he wanted to see me get being that now is the time to speak up if he had any special requests. He sounded less than thrilled not because what I'm doing, because it's really nothing special. It's just a damn crank and 8 rods and pistons here. Big deal. Thats what an engine builder does. Makes it all work. This is just off the shelf stuff people have been putting together for years. Not exactly rocket science. His exact words were, "doesn't sound like anything we haven't been doing since the 60's." Before I went a head and ordered everything, I wanted to talk with him about it and run over some options. He was a little surprised about running as small of a stroke as I am is ALL he brought up. I build transmissions for a living and do race stuff at home sometimes consisting of 2k horsepower glides to 1500 HP 4L80's to 1000hp c4's and the ever constant 1000 plus th400's in my garage. Not only do I build for many, many street racers, but also for several speed shops around me. I could care less if someone wanted to bring me the parts I need to build what is required. My labor charge is time invested. Wether it be the same parts I order or you bring me. I could care less how the parts are acquired so long as you bring me the parts I specify to make it work. If Joe blow doesn't happen to bring me everything, I'll order it just the same as him PLUS mark it up. I tell everyone that up front. I really could care less WHO orders all the crap from Coan or Rossler or Ati, who ever. If I do it, I'll expect to charge more because I'm simply using MY money for YOUR build. My engine builder hasn't given two shits about me bringing him parts to build MY engine for any of them he has done for me. I'm paying him to BUILD it. So what's being said here to me is that if I don't choose an engine builder from this site, I don't get to ask forum questions? I have not once asked to do it cheap. He gave me a ball park to machine all of it and assemble the short block. I hand over a pile of cash. Done deal. I simply pay what he asks no questions asked. Always have. Before we got off the phone, he stated that I get everything coming as planned and drop it all off. Is that not how it works? I'll dress the block and semi prep it so he doesn't have to spend a couple hours doing shit work but past that, it's all his. He's busy building high end and exotic true race shit. The less time he needs to spend doing prep work, the more time he can effectively get to the real deal. He said that to me before.
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  rmcomprandy on November 5th 2016, 11:23 am

Some high-end engine builders will use other peoples parts but, I have never heard of one reducing their price because of it.  The charge usually ends-up being higher because of that extra time involved.
If your engine builder does not charge for whatever extra time it actually takes, then he probably does not build engines for his living.

IF you are getting the parts which that engine builder specifically dictated, then it is probably a different story.
It sure didn't look that way as you have already changed your mind about the block, the heads and rotating assembly since the beginning of this thread.

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  octanehuffer on November 5th 2016, 12:19 pm

Who said anything about reducing prices? I'm simply trying to do some block prep to save him some time and labor. Its just a service I can do easily so he doesn't need to. I can have the stroker assembly balanced for an additional price or pay him to do it just the same. If I were going to order it already balanced, I would pay him to check it for whatever labor would be extra for like I did with the last engine he built me. If I didn't want it balanced, why would he charge me for it. Block hot tanking is $90. If I don't need it, simply because I don't need it, why would he charge me. See my point? On one of the engines, I picked it all up after clearancing and machining and I assembled the short block. He didn't charge me the assembly charge. Its pretty simple. If he wants $1800 for what he did, great. If he wanted $2600 for what he did, great. He's a full time engine builder. My last engine had a cracked crank and block. He noticed the crack while he was line boring the block. Called me and I asked to stop working on it (lol obviously) and lets magnaflux the crank. I paid him for the labor he put into the junk block and the magnaflux to find out the crank was cracked in 12 spots, bought a new block and crank and sent it to him so he could continue. Did I care? Not a single bit. I'm not looking for reduced prices. Just ommiting services I don't need to pay for if I don't need them. If he sees something on the block that should be changed or addressed, he will do what it needs and simply charge me. I'm having him assemble the short block just incase something is out or needs to be checked during assembly. He's charging me for piston fitting, ring filing, all of the required machining, assembly, etc. He will build whatever I bring him and how I want it. If i want it to be 514 cubes, he'll do it with the parts i bring. If i want a 580 cube engine, he'll build it. That's why I'm looking for input. Its not up to him to know what the perfect combo is or what bore and stoke is best suited for each specific head, UNLESS he specifies an already proven recipe and we follw that. I'm doing my homework and looking for input so he can do his job.
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  rmcomprandy on November 6th 2016, 7:45 pm

octanehuffer wrote:I'm trying to compile parts to bring to my engine builder and the less prep work he has to do, the cheaper it will be. Has been in the past. This is far from my first engine build, but its difficult getting any bbf info in my parts.

??????????
Engine Builders and Engine Parts Machinists are completely different in the work they do. A lot do both.

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 6th 2016, 7:54 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
octanehuffer wrote:I'm trying to compile parts to bring to my engine builder and the less prep work he has to do, the cheaper it will be. Has been in the past. This is far from my first engine build, but its difficult getting any bbf info in my parts.

??????????
Engine Builders and Engine Parts Machinists are completely different in the work they do. A lot do both.
I see it as a difference between an engine builder and an engine assembler. BIB BIG difference.

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  rmcomprandy on November 6th 2016, 9:28 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
octanehuffer wrote:I'm trying to compile parts to bring to my engine builder and the less prep work he has to do, the cheaper it will be. Has been in the past. This is far from my first engine build, but its difficult getting any bbf info in my parts.

??????????
Engine Builders and Engine Parts Machinists are completely different in the work they do. A lot do both.
I see it as a difference between an engine builder and an engine assembler. BIB BIG difference.

Yea Scott, that ,too.  
I was referring to those capable engine builders who will not or do not perform engine parts machining as "outside labor" for others to perform the assembly.
As you know, a lot of simple engine machine shops do not have Engine Builders, other than assemblers ... Wink

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  octanehuffer on November 6th 2016, 11:16 pm

Haha. Sheesh. Enough ego in here to change the subject matter from component selection to giving symantic opinions about what to call the guy who finish machines and fits and engine together? Sounds like you guys have your thumbs under your suspender straps well enough for me to just piss off I guess. I guess I should have hired a guy to chisel ingots of steel to hand fabricate every part of the engine. Would he then be properly called a machinist? But he couldn't then assemble it right? Cause then he'd just be called an engine assembler. And heaven forbid I give a guy premade items to assemble and machine the engine what needs machining. Any more more hoidy toidy terms you guys can think up for a person who does the same thing? We get it. The guy I'm giving my unfinished block to and premade items to is going to finish machining them to fit properly together, then assemble it. Don't really care if you guys fluff your feathers over terms to prove you are better than most. Got it. My engine machinist, engine assembler, engine blueprinter, engine builder, engine part machinist, whatever else you want to call him is the guy doing the work. I got a couple of pm's from members regarding these types here. Ask some questions and get ridiculed over an off topic and trivial subject.
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  Calypso on November 7th 2016, 6:40 am

There are different ways to build very powerful engines and today, with advances in the aftermarket offering, it's possible for an enthusiast to make rather amazing amounts of horsepower without ever talking to anyone who builds, tunes and makes these things survive the flogging for his/hers living. 1000hp seems like an everyday achievement reading magazines. My exposure has been mainly in the street performance, which is not necessarily an easy combination of requirements, if you actually want to have drivability, reliability and you still occasionally drive it real hard on strip and track. (I'm not an engine builder by profession.) It's not uncommon to talk with guys who plan to move from typical N/A small block performance build to the 1000hp league in one step, without ever having driven a car on street, with street tires and suspension, and an engine with real 650HP and a lot of torque (boosted sb or stroker bb). 
Just driving 60mph uphill on a damp road can be an exciting experience when slightest blip of the throttle can get the rear sideways and fill the steering wheel side of the cabin with flying hands. Shocked It's probably my own aging and having had the opportunity to do a lot of flogging, wrenching, tuning, blowups and driving mistakes that is eroding the fun from enormous power on the street, but I still enjoy seeing and hearing cars that are actually driven and put out a lot of power.

Many engine builders specialize to certain engines and have accumulated a big amount of knowledge about what works and provides best value for money for given combinations and goals within the build. Engine builders typically support their customers by getting things dialed in and doing refreshes. All of this accumulates knowledge of the engine in question as a complex system that is actually used hard and can be optimized in many different directions making compromises in other areas. The more power you are about to make, the more important this experience becomes to make the engine perform and last in the application and level of maintenance. There's a massive amount of detailed knowledge in the whole combination from parts and prep, to tune and maintenance, that impact the power and reliability, that is impossible for an enthusiast to accumulate. 
An engine builder may also have volume and relationships in the parts supply chain that may help their customers get known good parts, save some money and allow the builder also get somewhat more butter on the bread. 

There is a certain amount of fun doing it yourself and learning in the process. I'm first to admit having done so for years. However, for something at even occasional 2000HP level, I'd go for a pro and and put all my effort into following the maintenance instructions to the letter. The bigger the power, the more expensive and dangerous the mistakes become. I don't mean to sound like a boring spoilsport, just offering something to consider. Anyway, I hope you get where you want to be, and enjoy it all the way.  Smile

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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  jasonf on November 7th 2016, 9:24 am

I hope you understand that the comments people are making here are not because they are arrogant but because they are trying to help you. Guys like Randy, Blake, Lem, Freelander and plenty others have built and raced big block Fords for decades. I am not an engine builder but I would never call the manufacturer and ask them what head to buy, for best results you call someone like the people on here that have built dozens and dozens of actual engines and have actual experience not what they read on a flyer like you get on most tech lines. It is not like you are trying to scab some $2500 build together, whether you know it or not you are building a $15-20k engine on your "budget".

When you have been around long enough you see these threads pop up going exactly like this one and in the end it ends up in poor results due to a poor combination of parts or the OP had the motor built by some Chevy guy that fubared it. I hope it all goes well but remember the people here are just trying to steer you in the right direction to avoid the many pitfalls people make.

Good luck with the build.
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Re: AFR headed builds

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 7th 2016, 10:02 am

octanehuffer wrote:Haha. Sheesh. Enough ego in here to change the subject matter from component selection to giving symantic opinions about what to call the guy who finish machines and fits and engine together? Sounds like you guys have your thumbs under your suspender straps well enough for me to just piss off I guess. I guess I should have hired a guy to chisel ingots of steel to hand fabricate every part of the engine. Would he then be properly called a machinist? But he couldn't then assemble it right? Cause then he'd just be called an engine assembler. And heaven forbid I give a guy premade items to assemble and machine the engine what needs machining. Any more more hoidy toidy terms you guys can think up for a person who does the same thing? We get it. The guy I'm giving my unfinished block to and premade items to is going to finish machining them to fit properly together, then assemble it. Don't really care if you guys fluff your feathers over terms to prove you are better than most. Got it. My engine machinist, engine assembler, engine blueprinter, engine builder, engine part machinist, whatever else you want to call him is the guy doing the work. I got a couple of pm's from members regarding these types here. Ask some questions and get ridiculed over an off topic and trivial subject.
I think part of the problem here is you made this sound like something that's WAY over your head as far as what parts you need vs. the power you're trying to make. You were all over the map here. Saying "this isn't the first engine I've ever built" was a little laughable given some of the comments you were making.
Have you ever built a 2K hp turbo engine? Has your engine builder?
If you want to assemble this engine in your garage, even if he's done the basic machine work to put the long block together, do you have a mill and lathe? You're going to need one. You're going to run into all sorts of things that are going to need special attention to detail in order to live at 2K hp.
Will you use the factory motor mounts or a motor plate of some sort? If you think you're just going to bolt on a set of motor mounts and call it good, you're fooling yourself.
When you start trying to bolt all this stuff together and realize about half of it fits like it's supposed to, then what?
I do this for a living and I can tell you that getting the basic long block together, having the right parts, making sure the clearances are right to live at the power you want to make, detailing the parts so they will live and make reliable power, getting things like valve piston clearance right, ring gaps, rocker geometry, push rod lengths, cam installed right...that's the easy part. The other thing to think about is maybe the reason your "engine builder" isn't so thrilled about doing this for you is because you're basically taking money out of his pocket by buying all your parts somewhere else. A BIG part of the way an engine builder makes a living is SELLING PARTS and you're taking that part of his profit away from him. He's right...it's not very exciting to just do the labor part of these builds and honestly, he should charge you extra to have to inspect YOUR parts to make sure they're what they're supposed to be. You don't know. You're just buying them from XYZ parts company and you really have no idea what you're getting or what to look for. Your engine builder has spent a big part of his career (hopefully) going through many different suppliers over the years and building reputations with them. He knows where he likes to get his parts from so he can be confident that he's getting what he's paying for and getting the best deal he can.
Bottom line here is you seem to be taking a lot of things for granted, mostly out of inexperience, that others are trying in their best way to help you understand. If you brought me a bunch of parts that you bought and wanted me to build you a 2K hp turbo engine, I'd probably say no unless just by chance, they were all the same parts I would choose to build the engine and that's not likely. I tell my customers, this may be your engine, but it has MY name on it. That's not ego talking, that's reputation and that's what we, as engine builders, live on and survive on. You don't just build (even a decent engine) and down the road just throw a turbo on it and make the kind of power you're talking about making. Maybe you have no concept of that kind of power, I don't know, but you either build an engine from the get go that will make 2K hp, 1500lbs/ft or what have you, or you don't.

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