Plumbing an accusump

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Plumbing an accusump

Post  BigRigTech on June 9th 2016, 10:39 am

What size hose should I use from a 3 quart accusump to the engine and does anyone have a manufacturer or part number for an oil filter "sandwich plate" for a BBF? This stuff is all new to me as I've never used one.
avatar
BigRigTech

Posts : 763
Join date : 2013-06-17
Location : Hatchet Lake, Nova Scotia, Canada

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  DaveMcLain on June 9th 2016, 12:18 pm

Just feed it into the block in the front where there is a pipe plug right now. A -8 would probably be just fine.

DaveMcLain

Posts : 364
Join date : 2009-09-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  D. Sea on June 9th 2016, 1:33 pm

I have mine plumbed into the back - top of the Block. Pictures are on here somewhere...
I use -8 Teflon innertube braided hose and compression fittings.
avatar
D. Sea

Posts : 2767
Join date : 2008-12-02
Age : 49
Location : Kentucky

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  BOSS 429 on June 10th 2016, 12:54 am

never feed the front first, it will fill the oil filter,and go to the oil pump before it get to the bearings,

 I tested this 3 years ago on  an engine WITH  NO OIL PAN ON IT,
( what a mess it made) you don't want it to go in the front, and you sure as hell don't want it to go between the oil filter,and the block.


feed it in the rear
avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2240
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  DaveMcLain on June 10th 2016, 7:44 am

BOSS 429 wrote:never feed the front first, it will fill the oil filter,and go to the oil pump before it get to the bearings,

 I tested this 3 years ago on  an engine WITH  NO OIL PAN ON IT,
( what a mess it made) you don't want it to go in the front, and you sure as hell don't want it to go between the oil filter,and the block.


feed it in the rear

It would sure be a good trick for it to do that with the engine running/pump turning, nice try..

DaveMcLain

Posts : 364
Join date : 2009-09-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  BOSS 429 on June 10th 2016, 8:34 am

we didn't have the engine running NEVER SAID WE DID?, but we did have cold oil, and heated oil to about 140 on 2nd try, David R. and Morison did do this is their dyno room once tho, testing oil pans . And I did see it done with the oil pump tube cut off with a hose ran to a 5gal bucket about 5 feet away so they could try to see the oil was falling from in the engine after it was warm running the pump with a drill. NOW that was a big mess, I decided to warm the oil ,not the eng when we did it.

WE ran our pump with a drill TILL OIL WAS GONE FROM PAN , sump took over and kept oil presser safe till 3q sump ran out of oil. eng kept oil presser for about 30/ 40 secs longer. THIS WAS WITH A 30LB SWITCH, Which is the min a person should use. A 4lb or 10 lb is a waste of time, and by then its too late.

when tested in the front it gauge dropped to around 12 or 15lbs ( I don't rem ) before sump caught up then went to 40 then fell off quick, sump had used reserve to fill filter first which does NOTHING TO SAVE the bearings. with engine oil warm it was worse.

In the rear it get's to the bearing's faster , It worked great

This is also why when you run a aucusump on a external / belt driven pump they sell a 1 way valve, so it wont fill THE FILTER FIRST, But YOU prob knew this? ?


avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2240
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  gt350hr on June 10th 2016, 10:27 am

Makes perfect sense Rich , nice work. I know one other person did something similar on an FE when he susbected teh oil was not draining back fast enough from the valve covers. He was wrong but in the mean time mad a HUGE oily mess. He emptied a two gallon pail of oil pretty quickly and most of it went all over the floor. LOL

gt350hr

Posts : 475
Join date : 2014-08-20
Location : Anaheim , CA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  rmcomprandy on June 12th 2016, 12:33 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:never feed the front first, it will fill the oil filter,and go to the oil pump before it get to the bearings,

 I tested this 3 years ago on  an engine WITH  NO OIL PAN ON IT,
( what a mess it made) you don't want it to go in the front, and you sure as hell don't want it to go between the oil filter,and the block.


feed it in the rear

Obviously there was no "anti back-flow" valve of some kind being used.
Feeding the front with an accusump NEEDS a way to keep the oil from flowing back into the pump & pan.

rmcomprandy

Posts : 5178
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  BOSS 429 on June 12th 2016, 1:25 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:never feed the front first, it will fill the oil filter,and go to the oil pump before it get to the bearings,

 I tested this 3 years ago on  an engine WITH  NO OIL PAN ON IT,
( what a mess it made) you don't want it to go in the front, and you sure as hell don't want it to go between the oil filter,and the block.


feed it in the rear

Obviously there was no "anti back-flow" valve of some kind being used.
Feeding the front with an accusump NEEDS a way to keep the oil from flowing back into the pump & pan.



correct,thats why you never feed it in the front of a std wetsump system,and they sell one-way valves to install in the line of a system like a wet vac Peterson pump,and thay works great. Need to stay away from the oil filter
avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2240
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  XF-66 on June 12th 2016, 2:21 pm

So as I've seen and been told to do......

Running a braided AN line from the front port of the block to the rear oil pressure port would bypass the oil filter completely correct?
I can see the direct route the oil would take to the lifter galleries, but would this cause an imbalance or disportional flow within the blocks OEM's design? Or does it all balance out?

XF-66

Posts : 65
Join date : 2012-09-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  rmcomprandy on June 12th 2016, 5:07 pm

XF-66 wrote:So as I've seen and been told to do......

Running a braided AN line from the front port of the block to the rear oil pressure port would bypass the oil filter completely correct?

NO ... the oil filter pad is the first place any oil goes coming out of the pump; any other place or port is after the filter.

rmcomprandy

Posts : 5178
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  XF-66 on June 12th 2016, 5:45 pm

Thanks Randy!

XF-66

Posts : 65
Join date : 2012-09-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  DaveMcLain on June 13th 2016, 10:18 am

BOSS 429 wrote:we didn't have the engine running NEVER SAID WE DID?, but we did have cold oil,  and heated oil to  about 140 on 2nd try,   David R. and Morison did do this is their dyno room once  tho, testing oil pans . And  I did see it done with the oil pump tube cut off with a hose ran to a 5gal bucket about  5 feet away so they could  try to  see  the oil was falling from in the engine after it was warm  running  the pump with a drill. NOW that was a big mess, I decided to warm the oil ,not the eng when we did it.

WE ran our pump with a drill TILL OIL WAS GONE FROM PAN , sump took over and kept oil presser safe  till  3q sump ran out of oil. eng kept oil presser for about 30/ 40 secs longer. THIS WAS WITH A 30LB SWITCH, Which is the min a person should use.   A 4lb or 10 lb is a waste  of time, and by then its too late.

when tested in the front it gauge dropped  to around  12 or 15lbs ( I don't rem ) before  sump caught up then went to 40 then fell off quick, sump had used reserve to fill filter first which does NOTHING TO SAVE the bearings. with engine oil warm it was worse.

In the rear it get's to the bearing's faster ,  It worked great

This is also why when you run a aucusump on a external / belt driven pump they sell a 1 way valve, so it wont fill THE FILTER FIRST, But  YOU prob knew this?  ?



How does it get to the bearings faster?

DaveMcLain

Posts : 364
Join date : 2009-09-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  BOSS 429 on June 13th 2016, 9:26 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:we didn't have the engine running NEVER SAID WE DID?, but we did have cold oil,  and heated oil to  about 140 on 2nd try,   David R. and Morison did do this is their dyno room once  tho, testing oil pans . And  I did see it done with the oil pump tube cut off with a hose ran to a 5gal bucket about  5 feet away so they could  try to  see  the oil was falling from in the engine after it was warm  running  the pump with a drill. NOW that was a big mess, I decided to warm the oil ,not the eng when we did it.

WE ran our pump with a drill TILL OIL WAS GONE FROM PAN , sump took over and kept oil presser safe  till  3q sump ran out of oil. eng kept oil presser for about 30/ 40 secs longer. THIS WAS WITH A 30LB SWITCH, Which is the min a person should use.   A 4lb or 10 lb is a waste  of time, and by then its too late.

when tested in the front it gauge dropped  to around  12 or 15lbs ( I don't rem ) before  sump caught up then went to 40 then fell off quick, sump had used reserve to fill filter first which does NOTHING TO SAVE the bearings. with engine oil warm it was worse.

In the rear it get's to the bearing's faster ,  It worked great

This is also why when you run a aucusump on a external / belt driven pump they sell a 1 way valve, so it wont fill THE FILTER FIRST, But  YOU prob knew this?  ?



How does it get to the bearings faster?  


REALLY?  because it doesn't spend time filling the oil filter or oil pump first ( and into the pan), it goes straight to the lifter galley, and to the mains, rear to front. we also found that Not only will it get there sooner it will keep presser up longer before sump runs out
avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2240
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  DaveMcLain on June 14th 2016, 9:47 am

I've been very busy so I have not had time to explain why I say that it is best to plumb the accumulator close to the pump and NOT at the rear of the engine, here is why:

First of all where is the lowest pressure in the system? It is NOT at the rear/farthest from the pump even though that seems intuitive. It is really at the number 2 main. Why? It is there because the velocity in the main galley is the highest past that intersection velocity and pressure are inversely proportional. Any time you can reduce that velocity it is helpful to the oiling system.

An accumulator doesn't act quite like you would think either. It doesn't just sit there waiting till the pressure drops and then suddenly hit the zero oil pressure engine with a slug of high pressure oil, no. Instead oil either flows into or out from the accumulator due to the pressure differential in the system. This means that the pressure at the lowest point would have to drop LOWER with the accumulator at the rear of the engine before any oil would begin to flow into the system AND during times when the accumulator pressure is lower than the pressure in the system more oil has to travel down the main galley thus increasing the velocity at number 2 and thus reducing its pressure and feed.

In our shop we have a small pump with a basin to hold oil and we use it on engine builds where turning the oil pump without being able to turn the engine is impossible. Stuff like tractors, Ford Mod engine Chevy LS etc. I can't say that I've EVER seen an excessive amount of oil come back through the pump until the relief valve opens and besides isn't a proper Ford style oil filter fitted with an internal check valve? I think so...


DaveMcLain

Posts : 364
Join date : 2009-09-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  whatbumper on June 14th 2016, 10:08 am

On my personal engine, which is a dry sump block windsor, we have the accusump plumbed straight to the moroso filter housing to one of the "outlets". Works very well.

whatbumper

Posts : 3024
Join date : 2009-11-11
Age : 38

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  BOSS 429 on June 14th 2016, 11:43 am



First of all where is the lowest pressure in the system?  It is NOT at the rear/farthest from the pump even though that seems intuitive.  It is really at the number 2 main.  Why?  It is there because the velocity in the main galley is the highest past that intersection velocity and pressure are inversely proportional.  Any time you can reduce that velocity it is helpful to the oiling system.

Again? If this was true then why is no#3 and 7 the most hurt 99% of the time in any bbf whenever there's a loss of oil presser?????

and the rod bearing fails before the main?

----------------------------------------------


An accumulator doesn't act quite like you would think either.  It doesn't just sit there waiting till the pressure drops and then suddenly hit the zero oil pressure engine with a slug of high pressure oil, no.  Instead oil either flows into or out from the accumulator due to the pressure differential in the system.  


wrong,we don't free flow our acc systems, we have a switch to control it, works perfect

and our presser is always higher in the acc on the piston side to cover any drop
------------------------


This means that the pressure at the lowest point would have to drop LOWER with the accumulator at the rear of the engine before any oil would begin to flow into the system AND during times when the accumulator pressure is lower than the pressure in the system more oil has to travel down the main galley thus increasing the velocity at number 2 and thus reducing its pressure and feed.

MY way the acc presser is never lower then the engine, in fact IF YOU WERE TO DO IT RIGHT it should always be 10lbs higher


THIS IS WHY WE stick in the rear.Same reason FORD put the oil sending unit there, its the last place to get oil,and the first place to loose it.


COME ON THIS IS COMMON SENCE, ....DO THIS, SPRAY A GARDEN HOSE AT A TREE,NOW HAVE SOME BODY START TO TURN THE VALVE CLOSED,WHAT HAPPENS THE TREE STARTS TO SEE A LOSE OF WATER ( OIL) .But we still have oil ( water) at the hose( front of engine) for a short time. Another hose connected to the one loosing flow( presser) will fill the hose first then spray on the tree .


If your car were to catch on fire would you want the firemen to fill their truck with the truck next to it? Or start spraying your car with it also ?

-------------------------------------------



In our shop we have a small pump with a basin to hold oil and we use it on engine builds where turning the oil pump without being able to turn the engine is impossible.  Stuff like tractors, Ford Mod engine Chevy LS etc.  I can't say that I've EVER seen an excessive amount of oil come back through the pump until the relief valve opens and besides isn't a proper Ford style oil filter fitted with an internal check valve?  I think so...

[/quote]
--

we are not working on tractors,and ls stuff, this is the BBF ENGINE, All I can say is if you want to fill the oil filter first,pump,and maybe want some in the pan? go ahead, Hook it up in the front, If you want to save the rod bearings, and money, Put it in THE rear OF any block that oils from the front to the back


All in all I'll do it my way, you do it yours.

avatar
BOSS 429

Posts : 2240
Join date : 2009-08-10
Location : Ill

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  richter69 on June 14th 2016, 5:57 pm

Mines plumbed in the front, has been for 15 years or better, never a bearing failure.... Ive been on short tracks pulling the chute and still no issues.... I reused a set of bearings in 3 diff builds.

Ill leave it plumbed in the front it works for me.
avatar
richter69

Posts : 13645
Join date : 2008-12-02
Age : 47
Location : In the winners circle

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  Curt on June 15th 2016, 10:30 am

Let me add to this conversation. You can not compress a liquid (oil). When you lose pressure, you lose it all, everywhere, at the same time.

As long as it is plummed into an oil passage, the engine won't know or care where it's coming from. The only wrong place would be one were the pump has nothing to do with pressurizing the system.
avatar
Curt

Posts : 2668
Join date : 2009-02-08
Age : 56
Location : Henrietta, Texas but mostly on the road

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  richter69 on June 15th 2016, 8:50 pm

I concur with curt....
avatar
richter69

Posts : 13645
Join date : 2008-12-02
Age : 47
Location : In the winners circle

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  rmcomprandy on June 15th 2016, 9:21 pm

Curt wrote:Let me add to this conversation.  You can not compress a liquid (oil). When you lose pressure, you lose it all, everywhere, at the same time.

As long as it is plummed into an oil passage, the engine won't know or care where it's coming from.  The only wrong place would be one were the pump has nothing to do with pressurizing the system.

LIQUID PRESSURE ... YES, because it is simply the amount of "push" for a volume.

LIQUID VOLUME ... NO; with no pressure, the system volume loss will diminish at one place first and that loss will migrate toward the point of the supply till there is no volume anywhere; (unless you somehow curtail that from happening).

You can somewhat equate that change to electricity and VOLTS vs. AMPS.

rmcomprandy

Posts : 5178
Join date : 2008-12-02
Location : Roseville, Michigan

View user profile http://www.rmcompetition.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  Copperhead on June 16th 2016, 9:19 am

richter69 wrote:Mines plumbed in the front, has been for years

Ill leave it plumbed in the front it works for me.


Me too,.....
Wink
avatar
Copperhead

Posts : 453
Join date : 2009-09-05
Age : 48
Location : Pikeville, KY

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  DaveMcLain on June 16th 2016, 9:57 am

Your logic is flawed so many levels.

First off your hose analogy is incorrect and a better one would be a piece of pipe all one diameter that has about four or five T fittings along its length and a cap on the very end. Which one of the branches flows the most when water is pumped down the pipe? Answer, the one that is the farthest from the source because it has the lowest velocity and thus the highest pressure. This is why on long AC ducts in a building they make them large at the beginning and then gradually reduce their diameter after each vent otherwise very little air would flow from the vent that's near the beginning of the duct and too much air would flow from the end. Velocity and pressure are inversely proportional and if I'm wrong a carburetor won't meter fuel.

Having a switch on the accumulator feed is a great idea so that it can be switched on after the engine is running but the oil in the accumulator has to come from somewhere and it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to have a pressure that is higher than what the oil system can provide when it is open to the system. You're confusing the static air charge with what the accumulator has dynamically when it is attached to the system.

What difference does the brand of engine make anyway?

Thinking about it I tend to believe that the effects of the velocity in the system must be pretty minor and therefore it probably makes no real difference where the accumulator is plumbed into the system.

DaveMcLain

Posts : 364
Join date : 2009-09-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  lghting94 on June 16th 2016, 1:14 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:Your logic is flawed so many levels.  

First off your hose analogy is incorrect and a better one would be a piece of pipe all one diameter that has about four or five T fittings along its length and a cap on the very end.  Which one of the branches flows the most when water is pumped down the pipe?  Answer, the one that is the farthest from the source because it has the lowest velocity and thus the highest pressure.  This is why on long AC ducts in a building they make them large at the beginning and then gradually reduce their diameter after each vent otherwise very little air would flow from the vent that's near the beginning of the duct and too much air would flow from the end.  

This is wrong a duct system is stepped down after takeoffs(vents) to maintain air pressure and flow velocity. If you do not reduce size after a take off the vent at the end will have almost no pressure and very little flow. I work with HVAC daily and have proven this many times with testing equipment. If a system liquid or air has many leaks without a reduced main flow system pressure and flow at the end will be almost none. If you don't believe me go to any manufactured home built and turn on the furnace fan vent closest to unit will try to blow your hat off. Other end of home you will barely feel the air come out. Manufactured homes have a single size trunk line(typically 4x12) but run high pressure to keep some flow at the end vent
avatar
lghting94

Posts : 762
Join date : 2008-12-16
Location : Vine Grove Kentucky

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Plumbing an accusump

Post  Curt on June 17th 2016, 3:55 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
Curt wrote:Let me add to this conversation.  You can not compress a liquid (oil). When you lose pressure, you lose it all, everywhere, at the same time.

As long as it is plummed into an oil passage, the engine won't know or care where it's coming from.  The only wrong place would be one were the pump has nothing to do with pressurizing the system.

LIQUID PRESSURE ... YES, because it is simply the amount of "push" for a volume.

LIQUID VOLUME ... NO; with no pressure, the system volume loss will diminish at one place first and that loss will migrate toward the point of the supply till there is no volume anywhere; (unless you somehow curtail that from happening).

You can somewhat equate that change to electricity and VOLTS vs. AMPS.

But our loss in this scenario is because the pick-up is no longer covered. It's not because we threw a rod through the lifter galley. As long as the pump is still turning, it is not going to back flow to the pan, an will continue to move to any orifice that was designed to move the oil.
avatar
Curt

Posts : 2668
Join date : 2009-02-08
Age : 56
Location : Henrietta, Texas but mostly on the road

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum