Is the machine shop truely your problem

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  whitefield on August 17th 2016, 1:47 pm

cletus66 wrote:
whitefield wrote:
cletus66 wrote:If your depending on the shop to get everything right and your just a parts assembler, you may want to take up building model cars.


I have done this for 3 decades.  Luckily, I have a good machinist at The Shop.   Laughing



I understand that people make mistakes , but when over a 20 plus years of doing business with local machine shop and you have  stock not modified or anything engine you are assembling in a mini van with overhead cam and no valve adjustment . I removed  the heads 3 times to get the valve length on the tip of the valve repaired there is a problem ! 3.3 Chrysler Newyorker  engine overhaul,I had to remove heads twice to get the valve guides repaired for excessive clearance and smoking.   I as well as former employs and fellow racers of said machine shop have a long list of issues and problems that were for given and tried to continue using and giving them business . I am not a person that is a once bit twice shy !  


So there is no confusion, the quote in red is from the OP.  I was poking fun at myself.  Embarassed


No problem ! we still be friends and I didn't take any offense to it. Wink
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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  Curt on August 17th 2016, 3:45 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:
BBFTorino wrote:Never take your Ford engine to a Chevy builder!! Twisted Evil

Where does this nonsense come from?  An engine is an engine and if the shop can only work on one brand they aren't very knowledgeable to begin with.  


It's not complete nonsense. I took a complete A460 Block/heads to a local shop after spinning a rod bearing. It appears that they left the oil restrictor out of the galley and destroyed a lot of good parts. I ended up suing them and winning, but the only ones that came out ahead were the lawyers (and I'm not talking about Kristina and family). I don't think others use this type of restriction, but what do I know?
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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  Lem Evans on August 17th 2016, 7:51 pm

Curt wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:
BBFTorino wrote:Never take your Ford engine to a Chevy builder!! Twisted Evil

Where does this nonsense come from?  An engine is an engine and if the shop can only work on one brand they aren't very knowledgeable to begin with.  


It's not complete nonsense. I took a complete A460 Block/heads to a local shop after spinning a rod bearing. It appears that they left the oil restrictor out of the galley and destroyed a lot of good parts. I ended up suing them and winning, but the only ones that came out ahead were the lawyers (and I'm not talking about Kristina and family). I don't think others use this type of restriction, but what do I know?

There are two issues here:
1] There are Ford and Chevy guys that can not or will not read the instructions .
2] The cavalier lifter mfrs. that always say...." do not under any circumstances restrict the oil to our lifters". Maybe the crankshaft and rod mfrs. should say "If you send 10 times more oil up stairs than is needed you may kick a rod out". It's just a matter of the broad brush statement of which block is involved. There are lifters that one could get real loosey goosey with the amount of oil offered the lifter gallery on a A460 block but I'm not of a mind to stick a bearing to find out. Shocked
I'm not sure about the bushed rollers but, if a guy let 3/32" in from the front & back he could do the Hot Rod Power Tour with a good needle lifters and it'd still be alive.

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  BBFTorino on August 18th 2016, 1:26 am

Because I've seen Chevy "builders" do Chevy things to Ford motors.
One so-called builder put the thrust main on the rear cap, and yes, actually torqued it down!
I've seen water/thread sealer on Ford head bolts.
I've seen Ford distributors wired up with the Chevy firing order and other goofy things that uninformed people do.

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  dfree383 on August 18th 2016, 7:19 am

IDT-572 wrote:
DaveMcLain wrote:
BBFTorino wrote:Never take your Ford engine to a Chevy builder!! Twisted Evil

Where does this nonsense come from?  An engine is an engine and if the shop can only work on one brand they aren't very knowledgeable to begin with.  


Right here, it should not make a tinkers damn what brand it is.

But each brand does have its secrets and requirements to make it right.

And sometimes it does take a long time to learn the specifice make
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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  DaveMcLain on August 18th 2016, 8:12 am

BBFTorino wrote:Because I've seen Chevy "builders" do Chevy things to Ford motors.
One so-called builder put the thrust main on the rear cap, and yes, actually torqued it down!
I've seen water/thread sealer on Ford head bolts.
I've seen Ford distributors wired up with the Chevy firing order and other goofy things that uninformed people do.

And if they are putting the thrust main in the wrong location they are not qualified to build ANY engine, Ford, Chevrolet, Briggs and Stratton etc. What would they do on a Continental or Pontiac engine?


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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  Lem Evans on August 18th 2016, 10:19 am

That's why I send all of my Briggs and Stratton projects to Dave McLain Laughing

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  BBFTorino on August 18th 2016, 6:47 pm

DaveMcLain wrote:
BBFTorino wrote:Because I've seen Chevy "builders" do Chevy things to Ford motors.
One so-called builder put the thrust main on the rear cap, and yes, actually torqued it down!
I've seen water/thread sealer on Ford head bolts.
I've seen Ford distributors wired up with the Chevy firing order and other goofy things that uninformed people do.

And if they are putting the thrust main in the wrong location they are not qualified to build ANY engine, Ford, Chevrolet, Briggs and Stratton etc.  What would they do on a Continental or Pontiac engine?

That's right Dave!!.....there are too many self-proclaimed "engine builders".
Anyone can make a mistake, I've made dozens!! LOL.
It just amazes me how some places stay in business.
Its these "know it all" types that should be raising a red flag.
Now for all the Ford builders on here, such as yourself, Mr. Evans, Carl, Paul Kane, Frank Merkle, etc. I would trust 100% with confidence because you all have seen it and dealt with the specific issues that Ford engines have!!

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  FalconEh on August 18th 2016, 9:41 pm

There are so many good points in this thread that are spot on, however there are always "catch 22's". We have many renowned BBF+ machinists/engine builders/fabricators etc. in the community here that can, will, and have been bad mouthed by people on the internet...because everything you read on the internet is true, and everyone who has a good experience posts it every chance they get, equally and as often as someone who feels they have been wronged. Rolling Eyes There are end users who not only are uneducated/unrealistic on what they want but are also unwilling to listen, learn, and understand a different perspective about what they think they want in order to adjust there perspective (and budget) to GET what they really want.
Over and above the customers, another big part of the problem is all the self proclaimed experts, and fly by night people/shops who willingly take peoples money slap together some junk and close the doors/ move and open under a new name giving a bad name/reputation to the industry as a whole.
My career has moved me around, I used to be wired in to my town, and who I wanted to bring my stuff to... but that can change and especially in the off season when you are the customer and want to find the right people to perform the right functions. You have to be knowledgeable and ask the right questions, and sometimes the wrong ones in order to find someone/entity you are comfortable with and trust. Outsource what makes sense, not just nickle and dime the project into a labor only job because you sourced everything on the internet to save a few nickles, and I want it next week.
I have ranted enough, but I will end this rant with I am GRATEFUL for the knowledge shared by the community here and will continue to verbally, and financially support the community, it takes passion for the sport to accomplish the days work, run a business, and offer up some advise in the free time left over and although the advise is free the support of those members is what pays for and makes that free advise available.

Customer, lifetime apprentice, hot rodder, supporter.
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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  Scott Foxwell on August 19th 2016, 12:53 pm

It takes a certain amount of mechanical aptitude to be a machinist, mechanic, engine builder...whatever you want to call yourself but I've seen way too many people in this business with absolutely none who I fear that just holding a screwdriver, they might hurt them self. Someone trying to put a thrust bearing where it shouldn't go reminds me of such a person. They should have to wear a sign...

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  rmcomprandy on August 19th 2016, 1:35 pm

I have seen the remains of a Pontiac engine when someone was adamant about putting the thrust bearing in the middle.

Those kinda people who call themselves capable are all over the place; and somehow they actually gain other peoples trust.

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  DaveMcLain on August 19th 2016, 2:26 pm

About 10 years ago Jon Kaase put the voodoo hex on me by asking if I had ever seen a Chrysler or Chevrolet engine put together where someone had used the key on the snout to time the cam instead of the dot on the bottom gear. I told him, "no I don't think I've ever seen that one"... He said, "you will"... He was right I've seen that at least three times since then and the first one about a week after he told me that story.

It was a big Chevy that came into a customer's shop. It wasn't running very well and they had pulled it out of the truck and in the process of tearing it down they saw that EVERY intake valve was just barely contacting the piston enough that there was no carbon. I told them to check the timing marks and was timed as described by Kaase. I saw it another time on a big Chrysler and then later on a small Chevy that a guy brought in to run on the dyno. That engine only made 306 horsepower after we fixed the problem. I don't know what it would have made before, maybe 150 horsepower? It was very weird sounding, very loud out of the exhaust, sounded retarded even though it had plenty of ignition timing, very flat. I've never checked that with a degree wheel but it has to put it out of time at least 40 degrees because there are 18 teeth on the gear!

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  Straubtech on August 20th 2016, 9:58 am

Huge difference between Parts Assembler and Engine Builder. In my case I am neither.

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  jones on September 5th 2016, 5:09 pm

300 inline 6 I just freshend up has 184,000 miles and very dependable, its was just worn and could use a set of new bearings and rings. My brother wanted me to mic everything like I would building a new engine and I told him I wouldn't. I don't want to know how big or small the tolerances are because then I would want to fix it if it was some crazy numbers. I ordered the same part numbers that where in the engine and as I was assembling the engine I made sure everything felt good, no tight spots. I just wanted to gain a little power back as every piston ring but one in the engine was broke. The valve guides where worn-out, crack across the exhaust seat in two chambers and blown head gasket. But,, the engine never failed me driving 200 miles a day!

I just didn't want this to snowball, it was super dependable before I tore it down so it can only be better?!

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  IDT-572 on September 6th 2016, 3:42 pm

jones wrote: 300 inline 6 I just freshend up has 184,000 miles and very dependable, its was just worn and could use a set of new bearings and rings. My brother wanted me to mic everything like I would building a new engine and I told him I wouldn't. I don't want to know how big or small the tolerances are because then I would want to fix it if it was some crazy numbers. I ordered the same part numbers that where in the engine and as I was assembling the engine I made sure everything felt good, no tight spots. I just wanted to gain a little power back as every piston ring but one in the engine was broke. The valve guides where worn-out, crack across the exhaust seat in two chambers and blown head gasket. But,, the engine never failed me driving 200 miles a day!

I just didn't want this to snowball, it was super dependable before I tore it down so it can only be better?!

Yes, if the ring and bearing manufacturer had it together the day they made your parts.

I have had rings wrong in a set with almost no end gap .002 - .003. It would have tightened up first trip down the road.

Check everything............. Twisted Evil
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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  BigDave65 on September 6th 2016, 4:00 pm

We have a local shop that builds a ton of Chevy 6-800" T/S T/D style engines that make a ton of power and live. Very reputable shop. They were building a 557 Ford for a friend and attempted to install a roller thrust cam plate without modifying the timing gear. Engine ran for 38 seconds and locked up. Broke both cam pins and bent every valve. And that wasn't the first BBF they've built.

So yes, there are idiosyncrasy's to each brand.
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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  jones on September 6th 2016, 4:05 pm

I rings where file fit. It was cheaper to order a set of Perfect circle v8 Chevy rings than a set of I6 Ford rings! Save almost $40 and got two extra sets! LoL I was mailing talking about the main and rod bearings. Hell, it's a I6 300 Ford it will probably survive a direct nuclear strike!

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  jones on September 6th 2016, 4:16 pm

i have learned that I can get entirely too anal about tolerances. I have been know to butt heads with machinist. 90% of the time I am wanting to try something and don't want to explain myself because it might take to long or I'm afraid they won't be as experimental as I am and not want to do it.
But like the engine I had the Kentucky crew build for me. I didn't want to know nothing about it. Just, this is what I want to do with it and here is a bag of money! They only part I had anything to do with was the oil pan and it ended up not fitting! LoL

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  bbf-falcon on September 6th 2016, 9:18 pm

61coon wrote:I have learned a great deal about engines over the past few years, and I'll be the first to say, I'm no engine builder. I did assemble my engine that's in my car now, but only under the close supervision of Blake (IDT-572). I am grateful for the lessons and knowledge I've gained from him. There are so many knowledgeable people on this board it's unreal. If anyone wants a "free" lesson, come to the bash, sit down, and sit in on a Randy Malik conversation(s). Mr. Sensitivity himself, has forgot more than I will ever acquire. Some folks say he's abrasive or rude, I say he's Randy,deal with it. The man has built darn near any engine ever manufacturered.  My pops told me a long time ago, shut up boy, you can't learn running yo mouth. People that are more experienced have been down that road before, no need for us to make the same mistakes when they offer advice... Thanks to all the engine builders that offer up advice for us! ---RED

X2.And yes Randy is my HeRo

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  crittersf1 on September 7th 2016, 4:02 pm

Randy is really fun to have a conversation with!
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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  Curt on September 7th 2016, 11:51 pm

crittersf1 wrote:Randy is really fun to have a conversation with!


lol!
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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  DaveMcLain on September 9th 2016, 7:57 am

BigDave65 wrote:We have a local shop that builds a ton of Chevy 6-800" T/S T/D style engines that make a ton of power and live. Very reputable shop. They were building a 557 Ford for a friend and attempted to install a roller thrust cam plate without modifying the timing gear. Engine ran for 38 seconds and locked up. Broke both cam pins and bent every valve. And that wasn't the first BBF they've built.

So yes, there are idiosyncrasy's to each brand.

Oh I get it... They're so good that they don't/can't read the instructions...


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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  Lem Evans on September 9th 2016, 10:30 am

Not using a roller retainer would cure that issue Laughing

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  jones on September 9th 2016, 1:46 pm

The only thing I have really noticed that a GM guy has problems with the Fords is setting the ignition timing. They also like to complain about Ford using so many different transmission bolt patterns etc..

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Re: Is the machine shop truely your problem

Post  Scott Foxwell on September 12th 2016, 8:38 am

DaveMcLain wrote:
BigDave65 wrote:We have a local shop that builds a ton of Chevy 6-800" T/S T/D style engines that make a ton of power and live. Very reputable shop. They were building a 557 Ford for a friend and attempted to install a roller thrust cam plate without modifying the timing gear. Engine ran for 38 seconds and locked up. Broke both cam pins and bent every valve. And that wasn't the first BBF they've built.

So yes, there are idiosyncrasy's to each brand.

Oh I get it... They're so good that they don't/can't read the instructions...  

The funny thing here is, even when you install a torrington bearing on a Chevy the timing gear has to be modified. Now, if you buy a gear with one already installed, the gear has already been modified but none the less. An engine "builder", even a Chevy engine builder, would know this and look for some sort of modification to be made on any other engine regardless of the brand. If you're used to buying parts that are already modified and just assembling engines, then this might get by you.

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