Sleeving a Block?

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Sleeving a Block?

Post  Pastel Blue on September 13th 2016, 7:53 pm

Just a general question about having to sleeve an entire 429cj block due to wear and tear... The block has already been bored .40 over, thought was to sleeve it back to a standard bore. Also, there is a need as one of the cylinders is showing a slight imperfection, that may be rust coming through the cylinder. the machine shop does not want to bore the block further... Not sure of the previous rebuilds on the engine, but it was poorly done and the engine has seen better days at this stage. Moving forward, it is all about keeping the #'s matching block with the original car. Is this a reasonable approach for a car that will become strictly a show car and the odd cruise drive as well. Thanks

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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  maverick on September 13th 2016, 8:03 pm

Nothing wrong with a properly sleeved block. No reason to pamper one, either, imo.
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Sleeving a Block?

Post  Pastel Blue on September 13th 2016, 8:26 pm

maverick wrote:Nothing wrong with a properly sleeved block. No reason to pamper one, either, imo.

Thanks. Not looking to pamper it, but I am doing a complete rotisserie concours restoration on the car and it will reach a stage in the restoration, the costs, etc., where it can no longer be driven regularly... Just too much invested... However, I will drive it, just not a lot...

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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  DaveMcLain on September 13th 2016, 9:49 pm

Before I would put 8 sleeves into a block I would sonic test it first. If it will go .060 over without trouble and most will that's what I would do. If it needs one or two sleeves it will be cost effective. Putting all 8 into a block is a heck of a lot of work and thus expensive.




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Sleeping a Block

Post  Pastel Blue on September 13th 2016, 10:30 pm

At this stage, cost isn't the issue... As the block has been properly checked, the machine shop feels it is best to sleeve it all and bring the engine back to standard bore. We have located a nice set of standard forged Pistons which will go nicely with this engine.

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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  Frank Merkl on September 13th 2016, 11:55 pm

sleeve them all ! get some good ductile iron sleeves from Darton sleeves and never look back! it's all I use
Frank
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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  Frank Merkl on September 13th 2016, 11:59 pm

Heres a link to me doing my A460 block
http://www.429-460.com/t24923-making-a-a460-block-badder
Frank
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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  dfree383 on September 14th 2016, 7:34 am

For a Dove-A 2 bolt block it may be cheaper to find another one, than do 8 sleeves?

The 2 bolt stuff isn't super rare, and just save the block for "numbers matching" stuff later, if it's the origional block.
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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  Pastel Blue on September 14th 2016, 7:36 am

Thanks for the positive reinforcement Frank. I just read through the 5 pages on the link you supplied, awesome!
I am not an engine builder per say, just a guy who loves his classic Mustangs and I am trying to restore my rare '71 429 cobra jet ram air convertible, 1 of 42 produced. She is a true sleeper, painted a Pastel Blue from the factory. 14" wheels with hub caps.

Body and paint completed, engine as mentioned, is in the machine shop here in Niagara Ont. I have an old school guy doing the rebuild for me: Ed Weins Automotive, a racer from back in the day... Original C-6 with the cast iron tail shaft is in the trans shop being gone through, only real issue was the front pump needed replacing and a couple minor pieces typical with this tranny rebuild. Had the 9" 3:25 trac lok completely rebuilt also. AZ car, no rust but years of hard (and fun?) driving and man... All the dirt encased on every inch of the car (inside and outside) from all those open roads in the Tuscon area...

Anyway, making good progress and when I was told the best (only?) option moving forward was to sleeve the block, l was concerned initially. But, after looking into this fix more, I learned that this is the right thing to do and I like that we can bring the block back to standard bore again. Cheers

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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  Pastel Blue on September 14th 2016, 7:40 am

Dfree: this is an original 4 bolt main block. '71 factory cj's got the 4 bolt mains, no matter if the CJ or SCJ version... If I wasn't looking to stay #'s matching throughout the car, I would agree with your thought and find a replacement block. Not this time...

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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  dfree383 on September 14th 2016, 8:16 am

Pastel Blue wrote:Dfree: this is an original 4 bolt main block. '71 factory cj's got the 4 bolt mains, no matter if the CJ or SCJ version... If I wasn't looking to stay #'s matching throughout the car, I would agree with your thought and find a replacement block. Not this time...

I have a standard 71 CJ 4 bolt block
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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  torino501 on September 14th 2016, 10:22 am

id bore it... not like your going to be beating the crap out of it with 800 hp..?

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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  Paul Kane on September 14th 2016, 12:17 pm

There's nothing wrong with a properly sleeved block, I'd just want to be sure that it's necessary.  Can you please describe in greater detail the suspect area a little bit more than that the "cylinder is showing a slight imperfection, that may be rust?"  Is this a small pit? An actual pinhole? Or some simple color stain?  Is it a depressed area in the bore, or is the bore still round?  Did you probe it with a pick to check its consistency/hardness?  How does that area look on the water jacket side of the cylinder?  Did the block fail pressure test at that spot?  Exactly where in the cylinder is it, 4 inches down or near the top?
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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  Paul Kane on September 14th 2016, 12:52 pm

I think you should forget about having a standard bore block at the expense of 8 sleeves, the block isn't so completely dilapidated that it needs 8 sleeves to be saved.

My advice is to first keep boring that one suspect cylinder for a 4.42" bore (but not the other 7 yet), and here's why:

  • Sleeving 8 holes is expensive for the consumer, it's relatively impractical, and it's illogical (in your particular case), especially when the worst case scenario is that only 1 hole actually needs a repair.  

  • Based on the bore size they are stopping at (4.40"), it seems your machine shop wants to install a thin-wall sleeve which will be once again get exceeded at just 0.040" over (actually they want to install 8 of them including good cylinders).  Most 385 Series blocks are capable of being bored to at least 4.44" bore without issue, and many of them may be bored further than 4.44" when it comes to mild builds such as a bone stock restoration like you're doing.

  • Therefore, that suspect cylinder should continue to get bored to the next bore size of 4.42".  This way, you can better evaluate the suspect area in that hole.  If the final conclusion is that it's fine then bore the other seven cylinders as well, and you will have saved the cost of sleeving 8 cylinders back to standard.

  • But if the suspect cylinder is clearly in need of a sleeve, then continue to bore that single hole in preparation for a thick-wall sleeve and then you will need just one sleeve while the rest are simply over bored to 4.42".  This way the block is repaired with just a single sleeve and will still be capable of future over bores (such as 4.44").

In summary: your rare, numbers matching 4-bolt CJ block has not yet reached a point in its life where it needs 8 sleeves in order to be saved.
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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  IDT-572 on September 14th 2016, 1:16 pm

Paul Kane wrote:I think you should forget about having a standard bore block at the expense of 8 sleeves, the block isn't so completely dilapidated that it needs 8 sleeves to be saved.

My advice is to first keep boring that one suspect cylinder for a 4.42" bore (but not the other 7 yet), and here's why:

  • Sleeving 8 holes is expensive for the consumer, it's relatively impractical, and it's illogical (in your particular case), especially when the worst case scenario is that only 1 hole actually needs a repair.  

  • Based on the bore size they are stopping at (4.40"), it seems your machine shop wants to install a thin-wall sleeve which will be once again get exceeded at just 0.040" over (actually they want to install 8 of them including good cylinders).  Most 385 Series blocks are capable of being bored to at least 4.44" bore without issue, and many of them may be bored further than 4.44" when it comes to mild builds such as a bone stock restoration like you're doing.

  • Therefore, that suspect cylinder should continue to get bored to the next bore size of 4.42".  This way, you can better evaluate the suspect area in that hole.  If the final conclusion is that it's fine then bore the other seven cylinders as well, and you will have saved the cost of sleeving 8 cylinders back to standard.

  • But if the suspect cylinder is clearly in need of a sleeve, then continue to bore that single hole in preparation for a thick-wall sleeve and then you will need just one sleeve while the rest are simply over bored to 4.42".  This way the block is repaired with just a single sleeve and will still be capable of future over bores (such as 4.44").

In summary: your rare, numbers matching 4-bolt CJ block has not yet reached a point in its life where it needs 8 sleeves in order to be saved.

This is the answer you need to listen too.
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Sleeving a Block?

Post  Pastel Blue on September 14th 2016, 3:00 pm

Some good points from those that have much more experience in engine builds, then I...

As a consumer, I looked for someone that knows how to build engines, understands the rarity aspect and gives me good advice to make a decision. I believe my shop is honest, understands how to build engines and will give me the best advice to save the block. I'll admit that I don't have all of the details in front of me, only what we quickly discussed. Bear with me as I try to describe the logic: He did do a couple initial very light bore applications of the cylinder in question and the imperfection was still there. With the bore already at 40 over + what would be required to take it to the next available bore size for acquiring the correct parts, it was his professional opinion that the cylinder be sleeved. Given the condition of this cylinder, the fact that the block was showing signs of rust in many areas, frost plugs leaking, etc..., and the years the car had sat unattended with this condition, he was concerned with the remaining cylinders. He could bore it to 60 over but I think he took my initial comments that I had wished the block was standard bore, to heart. He indicated that he could sleeve the block entirely and that in doing so it would be returned to standard bore and would also take a future re-bore (with the sleeves) if necessary. I felt that this was a good compromise and would ensure the longevity of the block in the future.

For those that have seen some of my other posts, I cannot begin to describe how poor of shape this engine was in...

I visited the shop today and I learned that one of the cylinder heads had a crack that had been previously repaired, albeit poorly. It is this crack and insufficient repair that allowed coolant/water to seep into the cylinder that caused the rust issue on the cylinder wall and raised the concern with the future use of the cylinder as is. The head was sent out and properly repaired including the use of some form of sealant that is then heated up to crystalize and the head was then pressure tested to ensure that the crack has been properly fixed once and for all. He described the procedure in much more detail, but I cant properly explain it here without embarrassing myself...

It doesn't matter moving forward, as of my visit today, the block has had the sleeves installed, so it is a moot point moving forward.

I am comfortable with what was done to the block, I believe the engine will be a sound and long term solution moving forward. I have total faith in my shop and what they are doing. they stand behind their work and again, as a consumer that is all I can ask for.

I know some here will not be pleased with the outcome, but hopefully they recognize that the work that was done was deemed necessary as per my request to "build me a strong and dependable engine moving forward".

When the engine is done, I will post more facts as to exactly what the shop did to prepare the engine. They are all over the important aspects including ensuring that it is properly balanced, decked and all that other stuff that should be done to ensure a good build.

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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  IDT-572 on September 14th 2016, 3:07 pm

What he has done is fine. Not needed but fine.

As Paul said, the correct and most economical way to proceed was to bore the suspect cylinder to 4.420 and if it cleared up, bore the rest, if it didn't , then sleeve that one hole.

If the other seven happened to not clean up then go ahead and start boring at 4.420 on to your sleeve od and put all eight in.

But that's water under the bridge. Keep us posted on the build.............. Good luck Wink
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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  dfree383 on September 14th 2016, 6:10 pm

Or even do some custom pistons in .045 over
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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  BigDave65 on September 14th 2016, 9:06 pm

FWIW I had a SCJ block bored to .110 over, 4.470 It was a filled block also which may be detrimental to street use.
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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  Wayne Pearce on September 15th 2016, 7:37 am

I picked up a D9TE block that had over 100,000 miles on it that developed an oil pressure problem (I couldn't pass up the $40.00 price tag, delivered! Upon disassembly, and inspection we found a little crater in one cylinder wall about two inches below the deck, it was about .040 deep X .060 wide at it's widest point, there was no evidence of coolant passing through it. This was supposed to be a budget build to replace the grenaded 429 in my daughters 79 Fox body hatch, so there was no money in the budget for boring, and new pistons. I reasoned that the engine had oil pressure issues, but ran well, so we reassembled the engine with the stock bore, D0VE C heads, and an after market hft cam. That was eleven years ago, and it's still running great with no issues. The original oil pressure issue was a big dent in the bottom of the oil pan pushed tightly against the oil pump pick up.

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Re: Sleeving a Block?

Post  D. Sea on September 15th 2016, 7:40 am

Wayne Pearce wrote:  The original oil pressure issue was a big dent in the bottom of the oil pan pushed tightly against the oil pump pick up.

  Wayne (SAWDOFF) Pearce

I've done that before. Oil pans don't like floor jacks (No I wasn't that dumb when I was young LOL) Car slipped off of jack and crunched the pan....
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