Which Head?- 598 NA

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  rmcomprandy on September 16th 2016, 8:50 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:

What is  "normal" .043" deal look like? Is it a .210" or 170"?

NORMAL piston ring radial dimension is spelled out in the automotive machinists handbook as "bore size divided by 22"

Anything else in the aftermarket costs more money and a lot of cheap-ass people don't believe is is necessary to spend their money on things like that.  It doesn't show and they don't know how to talk about it.

Easy there Randy lol!

You gotta understand that I aint having one of the machinists hand job books Smile

OK ... simply - bore size divided by 22 - is an O.E.M. industry standard for fractional rings. Metric rings have a different SAE standard; not sure but, I think it is - bore size divided by 23.

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  Lem Evans on September 16th 2016, 8:59 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:

What is  "normal" .043" deal look like? Is it a .210" or 170"?

NORMAL piston ring radial dimension is spelled out in the automotive machinists handbook as "bore size divided by 22"

Anything else in the aftermarket costs more money and a lot of cheap-ass people don't believe is is necessary to spend their money on things like that.  It doesn't show and they don't know how to talk about it.

Easy there Randy lol!

You gotta understand that I aint having one of the machinists hand job books Smile

OK ... simply - bore size divided by 22 - is an O.E.M. industry standard for fractional rings. Metric rings have a different SAE standard; not sure but, I think it is - bore size divided by 23.
Damn Randy.....I was just kidding.
If a deal is 1/16" x .210" or .043" x .170" I really do not care how it got there SAE or not...it is what it is.cheers

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  Lem Evans on September 16th 2016, 10:02 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:I didn't say you were talking ring seal.....Randy was.

Most of the time there is a practical & a financial factor to my view of an engine package. Both are very kin.

The practical aspect of the crankshaft is: OP said he is gonna use a Scat crankshaft...the readily available shafts from Scat and most others are 4.300" not 4.375".
The financial aspect of the crankshaft is: strokes other than 4.150/4.300/4.500" really effect the price point.

Another aspect of the practical side of a package for this truck is: The thing weighs TWO TONS and the track can be as short as 300'. I'll take some 'peak' or any other way I can get it piston acceleration. Smile

I have often witnessed "blow-by" meter testing when reaching over 90 feet per second average piston speed, that a normal big bore .043" thick ring weighs enough that it WILL flutter and not seal against the piston ring land when changing directions at TDC unless it is assisted by some kind of gas port or crankcase vacuum or preferably both.

Believe whatever you wish to believe and I will, too.
Yeah, I never understood the odd crank choices for Fords. In that case I'd go for the 4.5 as well. Just wouldn't be my first choice especially with an A head.

Well uh, there is nothing 'odd' about it.:

4.500" stroke with a 6.700"  or a 4.300" stroke with a 6.800" rod works with the same piston CH/CD.... grade school math.
Give it a rest Lem.

I'm not looking for any advise about 'rest'. But, then again us BBF guys are odd about stuff that's not relevant.

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  rmcomprandy on September 16th 2016, 11:29 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:

What is  "normal" .043" deal look like? Is it a .210" or 170"?


If a deal is 1/16" x .210" or .043" x .170" I really do not care how it got there SAE or not...it is what it is.cheers

YOU asked about the definition for a "NORMAL" piston ring radial thickness ... whether you care or not about the way it is defined makes no difference.
... or did you already forget you asked that question...?

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HP goal

Post  fastashley on September 17th 2016, 1:36 pm

Someone asked earlier about HP goal. I would like to see 950-1000. I know bigger number are possible with a 598, 1100-1300. Those numbers seems to come with Big budgets and maintenance. The local pullers seem to go this route. In the 'class' I race in, I'm competing with full size trucks running 434 SBC with nitrous, 540 Bbc NA or nitrous, 460 BBF with nitrous or 557 BBF NA. These are the most common combinations. My 557 has done very well with Blue Thunder B heads, 14:1 and hi-range. (Most run lo-range and 11:1 or 12:1). The Ford guys run almost exclusively some style of CJ heads. It's like nobody is aware of the options we have

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Lightweight BBF rotating

Post  fastashley on September 17th 2016, 1:45 pm

My background ground is SBF. I've always ran lightweight billet cranks and ultra-light billet steel rods. Is this also a concern for the BBF? I don't see a lot of mention about it. Or is it not an issue at 7000?

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  rmcomprandy on September 17th 2016, 2:27 pm

fastashley wrote:My background ground is SBF. I've always ran lightweight billet cranks and ultra-light billet steel rods. Is this also a concern for the BBF? I don't see a lot of mention about it. Or is it not an issue at 7000?

Personally, for what YOU wish to do ... I would build a big bore 572, (4.600" bore x 4.300" stroke), with good A460 heads, readily available steel crank and good rods & flat top pistons; (that should be around 12.5/1 compression ratio).

That would easily make in the horsepower range you are wanting.

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  fastashley on September 17th 2016, 6:54 pm

Thanks for the input. That's sounds perfect...time to start collecting parts

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  Lem Evans on September 18th 2016, 10:34 am

fastashley wrote:Someone asked earlier about HP goal. I would like to see 950-1000. I know bigger number are possible with a 598, 1100-1300. Those numbers seems to come with Big budgets and maintenance. The local pullers seem to go this route. In the 'class' I race in, I'm competing with full size trucks running 434 SBC with nitrous, 540 Bbc NA or nitrous, 460 BBF with nitrous or 557 BBF NA. These are the most common combinations. My 557 has done very well with Blue Thunder B heads, 14:1 and hi-range. (Most run lo-range and 11:1 or 12:1). The Ford guys run almost exclusively some style of CJ heads. It's like nobody is aware of the options we have

That would be me that ask about you power goal and I have a few other questions.

What's the transmission type? If it's automatic what is the stall speed going to be?

Will this thing be foot braked?

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  Scott Foxwell on September 18th 2016, 12:11 pm

fastashley wrote:Someone asked earlier about HP goal. I would like to see 950-1000. I know bigger number are possible with a 598, 1100-1300. Those numbers seems to come with Big budgets and maintenance. The local pullers seem to go this route. In the 'class' I race in, I'm competing with full size trucks running 434 SBC with nitrous, 540 Bbc NA or nitrous, 460 BBF with nitrous or 557 BBF NA. These are the most common combinations. My 557 has done very well with Blue Thunder B heads, 14:1 and hi-range. (Most run lo-range and 11:1 or 12:1). The Ford guys run almost exclusively some style of CJ heads. It's like nobody is aware of the options we have
When you included Thor heads as a possible choice in your first post, that would indicate, to me at least, that you have a decent budget to work with. By the time you buy castings (if you can find them), add porting, valves, springs, valve train...you're going to have close to ten grand just in heads. Then you need an intake...
950-1000 hp is a walk in the park with shelf stocking parts. Like Randy said, big bore, short stroke, long rod, A heads, but I wouldn't waste my time with 12:1. If you're going to put some compression in it, put some compression in it.

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  dfree383 on September 18th 2016, 1:05 pm

I can agree with the compression statement.... 12:1 to high for pump gas and a waste of good race gas! Laughing
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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  rmcomprandy on September 19th 2016, 10:04 am

dfree383 wrote:I can agree with the compression statement.... 12:1 to high for pump gas and a waste of good race gas! Laughing

I also agree that more compression ratio would help however, that seems to be what was asking for.

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  Curt on September 19th 2016, 4:22 pm

LOL Randy, you want to argue with everyone about every other factor and then state 12:1 is what he asked for when it really should have been the first "why". You're quite the gentleman. Laughing
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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  Lem Evans on September 19th 2016, 6:37 pm

dfree383 wrote:I can agree with the compression statement.... 12:1 to high for pump gas and a waste of good race gas! Laughing

His original post said 14:1.

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  rmcomprandy on September 19th 2016, 11:13 pm

Curt wrote: LOL Randy, you want to argue with everyone about every other factor and then state 12:1 is what he asked for when it really should have been the first "why".   You're quite the gentleman.  Laughing

Not really, facts are fact and opinions are an opinion. The only thing which is of importance here, (to me anyway), is answering the OP question, (if I can), and it doesn't matter to me his reasoning and whether I disagree with it or not. Asking "why" does not answer the given question. I figure, He must have his own reasons.  Rolling Eyes
If not ... they will learn it for themselves when it does or doesn't work well.
The compression ratios he mentioned that everybody else in the class is using was 11/1 to 12/1. It is really easy to get a bump on the piston for more.

I simply told him the best combination I personally would use to get there.  Smile . Especially if he ever intends to use nitrous.

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  dfree383 on September 20th 2016, 7:34 am

Lem Evans wrote:
dfree383 wrote:I can agree with the compression statement.... 12:1 to high for pump gas and a waste of good race gas! Laughing

His original post said 14:1.

Yep..... I should have paid better attention.

Answering his origional question A460 heads would be plenty, be sure to use TI valves and keep the cam specs reasonable and uses high quality springs.

I'd do either a 572 or 598 on a 4.600 bore and stick with common parts.
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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  cool40 on September 20th 2016, 8:52 pm

A heads are very capable of what you want. I'd be sure some "rules" wouldn't apply before I spent money. Like has already been mentioned if you go shaft rockers and ti valves you may as well go with C's ....rules allowing. Wink
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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  68formalGT on September 20th 2016, 9:41 pm

cool40 wrote:A heads are very capable of what you want. I'd be sure some "rules" wouldn't apply before I spent money. Like has already been mentioned if you go shaft rockers and ti valves you may as well go with C's ....rules allowing. Wink

Definitely check the rules. MRA, for example, has a rule against C-heads and any other "pro-stock" type head being used in Super Stock. That's one of the reasons Keith Fulp did his Interceptor A-head build.

http://www.429-460.com/t16558-keith-fulp-s-618-a-head-interceptor
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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  Lem Evans on September 21st 2016, 9:10 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
fastashley wrote:Someone asked earlier about HP goal. I would like to see 950-1000. I know bigger number are possible with a 598, 1100-1300. Those numbers seems to come with Big budgets and maintenance. The local pullers seem to go this route. In the 'class' I race in, I'm competing with full size trucks running 434 SBC with nitrous, 540 Bbc NA or nitrous, 460 BBF with nitrous or 557 BBF NA. These are the most common combinations. My 557 has done very well with Blue Thunder B heads, 14:1 and hi-range. (Most run lo-range and 11:1 or 12:1). The Ford guys run almost exclusively some style of CJ heads. It's like nobody is aware of the options we have

That would be me that ask about you power goal and I have a few other questions.

What's the transmission type? If it's automatic what is the stall speed going to be?

Will this thing be foot braked?  

When fastashley gets back from vacation if he would answer these simple questions all could offer a more informed opinion.


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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  fastashley on September 22nd 2016, 11:15 pm

Sorry for the hiatus, lost phone

Lem asked about tranny and stall.
I'm running a C6 (1st and 2nd only). Stall is 4500 with a foot brake. I've toyed with a transbrake, but I feel we are actually Faster without it. It's impressive dumping the brake at 5000 and seeing the sand fly, the crowd loves it. But with the torque of the BBF, I'm actually jumping guys by a half a length or a full length. They have to play catch up, which is hard to do in such a short distance

As for class rules, they're aren't any. It doesn't matter what head I run. They're are unspoken " class" rules- race against guys with similar rigs. Don't line up your plastic 2000 lb nitrous SBC Jeep against a full bodied 4500 lb truck, then brag about beating him. That's Douchebaggery.

As for compression, if I had 12:1, I'd just go to 14 or 15. I thought about running E85 for a time, then I'd probably do a 12:1 deal. Seriously considering alcohol injection this time

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  fastashley on September 23rd 2016, 6:19 am

Will not be running nitrous
No good reason, just a pride thing. A lot of guys up here run nitrous simply because they don't know how to make power any other way.
"How much nitrous you running?"
"None"

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  Lem Evans on September 23rd 2016, 9:47 am

fastashley wrote:Sorry for the hiatus, lost phone

Lem asked about tranny and stall.
I'm running a C6 (1st and 2nd only). Stall is 4500 with a foot brake. I've toyed with a transbrake, but I feel we are actually Faster without it. It's impressive dumping the brake at 5000 and seeing the sand fly, the crowd loves it. But with the torque of the BBF, I'm actually jumping guys by a half a length or a full length. They have to play catch up, which is hard to do in such a short distance

As for class rules, they're aren't any. It doesn't matter what head I run. They're are unspoken " class" rules- race against guys with similar rigs. Don't line up your plastic 2000 lb nitrous SBC Jeep against a full bodied 4500 lb truck, then brag about beating him. That's Douchebaggery.

As for compression, if I had 12:1, I'd just go to 14 or 15. I thought about running E85 for a time, then I'd probably do a 12:1 deal. Seriously considering alcohol injection this time

Two ton truck, foot brake and 4500 stall. Displacement will be your friend...I'm still in the 598 camp. More performance for the same $s.

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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  cool40 on September 23rd 2016, 1:23 pm

598 will live a happy life @7500 with good parts. With no rules to deal with I'd go for the C heads since you're starting from scratch.
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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  windsor on September 23rd 2016, 1:36 pm

Wheelie58 wrote:
yellowhorse7 wrote:So the million dollar questions is.....how much to duplicate the head and intake package?

Very impressive results BTW Cool
There are a few options, but a pair of full boogie heads with titanium valves and beryllium copper seats fully assembled would be a little under $7600. Those would duplicate mine on the 618.
A new ported tunnel ram with no top would be roughly $1500.
During this year, I am going to do a set of a more conservative spec and put those on a 598-605 for a test.
I also will "twist" a single 4 manifold.

Thanks,
Keith

These are for Keith Fulp "Interceptor" A460s. Amazing job he did with those. That's around fully prepped C head territory, no? Having A's keeps you legal in a lot more classes.

http://www.429-460.com/t16558-keith-fulp-s-618-a-head-interceptor
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Re: Which Head?- 598 NA

Post  IDT-572 on September 23rd 2016, 2:00 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:

What is  "normal" .043" deal look like? Is it a .210" or 170"?

NORMAL piston ring radial dimension is spelled out in the automotive machinists handbook as "bore size divided by 22"

Anything else in the aftermarket costs more money and a lot of cheap-ass people don't believe is is necessary to spend their money on things like that.  It doesn't show and they don't know how to talk about it.

Easy there Randy lol!

You gotta understand that I aint having one of the machinists hand job books Smile

Cant believe Lem would bring hand jobs into your thread.............  So tacky.  Razz Razz



My vote is a 4.600 x 4.500 .043 .043 3/16th ring pack good old bread and butter deal with a vacuum pump 15.5 - 16:1 compression.

Simple A head package flowing 450+with Ti valves and a good Jomar girdle. don't go stupid with spring pressure 275-300 seat 800 open will do the job. 7100 will probably make the power you need.    

Don't make it harder or more costly than needed.
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