460 starter issues

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460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on October 14th 2016, 3:10 am

I have a bit of a Frankenstein project that's been a handful from the beginning but I've just about got it finished after ten months and this last problem has me stumped. It's a '79 long block with a 1987 C6 tranny and flexplate. I went down to O'Reilly's and got a rebuilt starter, bolted it up and... nothing. The engine wouldn't turn over. I tried to turn it over manually and it would make it about an eighth of a turn and stop dead. Read around a little, bought a spacer for the starter, and tried again. This time it would turn all the way over by hand so I got in and hit the ignition again. Turned over fine twice, then made a hideous grinding sound coming from the starter. Pulled the starter and the front corner was broken off of all the teeth on the bendix. Closer inspection showed that there were also grooves ground into the starter housing at the same level that the teeth were broken. I removed the flexplate to make sure that it was installed correctly (which it was). There were also no broken teeth on the flexplate, the only damage was to the starter. Everything I've read says that this is the right starter so does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong? I'll put pictures of the damaged starter Monday.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  bbf-falcon on October 14th 2016, 8:03 am

Check to see if you have a converter bolt not in all the way.It could be hitting the starter as it passes by.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on October 15th 2016, 3:44 pm

They're all bolted in correctly, I even ground them off flush with the nuts and it still has the problem. Considering that it's intermittent (only grinding on the third or fourth attempted start) I did wonder, but I don't see how it could be.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  BBFTorino on October 15th 2016, 6:53 pm

Are you able to turn the motor over by hand??

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on October 16th 2016, 2:08 am

Yes, once it was shimmed.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  BOSS 429 on October 16th 2016, 6:58 am

turned it over once it was shimmed???????????????? 429 460s dont need shimmed, sounds like they are sell you the wrong starter
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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on October 16th 2016, 5:39 pm

I thought that too, but I pulled one off of an 80 something f350 the other day and it was the same starter I'm trying to use. I'm to the point of considering just buying a new flexplate and seeing if that fixes the problem, but I'm afraid I'll just end up with another destroyed starter and an extra flexplate .

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  billandlori on October 16th 2016, 7:16 pm

They are pretty hard to tell apart. There is a 3226 for automatics and a 3225 for manual trans. Side by side you can hardly tell the difference. I had a shop send me the wrong one and it would start but it sounded really bad lol!! I got a new 3226 and it starts nice now and doesn't make people turn around to look at what's making that terrible sound!!

Bill
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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  BOSS 429 on October 16th 2016, 8:10 pm

Warwolf wrote:I thought that too, but I pulled one off of an 80 something f350 the other day and it was the same starter I'm trying to use. I'm to the point of considering just buying a new flexplate and seeing if that fixes the problem, but I'm afraid I'll just end up with another destroyed starter and an extra flexplate .



an 80 will be the wrong one, here is the prob
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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  BOSS 429 on October 16th 2016, 8:11 pm

billandlori wrote:They are pretty hard to tell apart. There is a 3226 for automatics and a 3225 for manual trans. Side by side you can hardly tell the difference. I had a shop send me the wrong one and it would start but it sounded really bad lol!! I got a new 3226 and it starts nice now and doesn't make people turn around to look at what's making that terrible sound!!

Bill

for the 79 400 351m bell, there is no diff in the starter, all the way back to 68 for the 429, stick or auto, here again another problem
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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on October 16th 2016, 8:20 pm

I'd heard about the different starters between automatics and manuals. I got my starter from Oreilly's and they claim that that's the only starter in the system for that engine, which did make me a little suspicious. You think that's the problem after all?

It's a 79 block but an 87 tranny and flexplate, would that make any difference or did they use the same starter all those years?

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on October 17th 2016, 1:30 pm

That must have been the problem because it's fixed now. I went down to the parts store and finally wound up getting a mini starter from 91 or 92, because their computer showed both a manual and automatic starter for that year. Turns over great. Which is how I now know that I need a new fuel pump. But hey, one problem down right? Thanks for all your suggestions.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  BOSS 429 on October 17th 2016, 9:08 pm

Warwolf wrote:That must have been the problem because it's fixed now. I went down to the parts store and finally wound up getting a mini starter from 91 or 92, because their computer showed both a manual and automatic starter for that year. Turns over great. Which is how I now know that I need a new fuel pump. But hey, one problem down right? Thanks for all your suggestions.


wrong year will mess a person up

GREAT TO HEAR that its fixed
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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on November 14th 2016, 5:28 pm

As much as it pains me, I have to re-open this topic. So here's the new issue. I bolted up the mini starter and it turned over fine and even fired with carb cleaner sprayed into the carburetor, so I assumed that issue was dealt with. When it still wouldn't start I assumed that the fuel pump was bad (it had been sitting for quite some time so I figured I would just replace it and move on). Pulled the mechanical fuel pump, plugged the hole, and gave it an electric one. Still wouldn't start even though it's definitely getting gas now. I had my uncle (a hotrodder since the 80s) sit in it and try to start it, and he says it sounds like the starter isn't disengaging. I heard that they made 460 flywheels with two different numbers of teeth, could that be the problem? I'm grateful for any input.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Mark O'Neal on November 16th 2016, 4:34 am

First....that is an awful lot of starter issues.

The flywheels have 176 teeth, flexplates had 164.

If it's not starting, how would you know it's not disengaging?


As for it not starting. Three things are required for an engine to run. Fuel, compression, and ignition. It all three are there when they're supposed to be, the engine will run.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on November 16th 2016, 1:11 pm

Mark O'Neal wrote:First....that is an awful lot of starter issues.

The flywheels have 176 teeth, flexplates had 164.

If it's not starting, how would you know it's not disengaging?


As for it not starting. Three things are required for an engine to run. Fuel, compression, and ignition. It all three are there when they're supposed to be, the engine will run.


Tell me about it, I've never had so much trouble with something as simple as this should be.

So I heard wrong about there being flexplates with different numbers of teeth?

Because it revs for startup, then instead of picking up and running it dies. As I outlined before I made sure I had spark and fuel and already tested compression. I actually think I just fixed the disengagement problem by rewiring it (I had run a wire between the two poles on the integrated solenoid because I already have one on the sidewall, learned that doing that can keep the starter from disregarding so I did it correctly this time). But now there is an audible *click-click-click* coming from the direction of the starter when I turn it over, it wasn't making that sound before I wired the second solenoid into the circuit.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  gt350hr on November 16th 2016, 3:05 pm

That is your problem , you shouldn't run the "jumper wire". My '78 F350 has a conventional firewall mounted solenoid and a 460 auto. When I switched starters to the mini starter , I took the big cable to the starter on the solenoid and moved it to the other pole on the solenoid same as the hot 12V battery cable. I then added the "exciter wire" to the now empty pole on the solenoid and ran it down to the small contact on the starter. This is the way the Ford factory instructions say to do it. Mine works perfectly and does not continue engagement. 30 years ago I bought a Tilton starter for my 351C and they said to use the "jumper" method and I too experienced "run on" until my local starter guy told me about the Ford recommended wiring mod and the problem was solved.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on November 16th 2016, 11:51 pm

gt350hr wrote:    That is your problem , you shouldn't run the "jumper wire"...

Thanks, tossing the jumper wire and doing it right did solve the disengaging problem, but the clicking bothers me and it still doesn't want to start. I really only turned it over once when I heard the clicking so it very well may actually start now but I wanted to figure that part out first. I assume it's something with the solenoid since I didn't have the problem before it was wired in.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  gt350hr on November 17th 2016, 1:09 pm

It is possible you still have a problem with the small solenoid on the starter. I've never had an issue , but it is possible.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on November 18th 2016, 9:13 pm

gt350hr wrote:   It is possible you still have a problem with the small solenoid on the starter. I've never had an issue , but it is possible.

I'm going to take the starter in to Oreilly's probably on Monday and have it tested, we'll see how it goes.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  Warwolf on December 8th 2016, 7:48 pm

Apologies to anyone who's still watching this thread, it's finals week and it's been a little crazy. I do have good news fortunately: the starter solenoid had been damaged when they were rebuilding it, so the part store gave me another one and there's no more clicking or grinding. Unfortunately it's still not starting, but now it's the carburetor that refuses to idle (always something, right?). I'm going on a trip and won't be able to work on it for a week but when I get back I'm buying a carb that I know works correctly from my cousin so if that's the last problem then it should be good. The bad news is I went to fill up the coolant and it instantly dumped all over the shop floor thanks to a previously unknown leak around the timing chain cover. I'm actually pretty ecstatic to have a normal problem at this point, but it has required me to dissasemble the front of the engine.

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Re: 460 starter issues

Post  IDT-572 on December 9th 2016, 5:52 pm

Warwolf wrote:Apologies to anyone who's still watching this thread, it's finals week and it's been a little crazy. I do have good news fortunately: the starter solenoid had been damaged when they were rebuilding it, so the part store gave me another one and there's no more clicking or grinding. Unfortunately it's still not starting, but now it's the carburetor that refuses to idle (always something, right?). I'm going on a trip and won't be able to work on it for a week but when I get back I'm buying a carb that I know works correctly from my cousin so if that's the last problem then it should be good. The bad news is I went to fill up the coolant and it instantly dumped all over the shop floor thanks to a previously unknown leak around the timing chain cover. I'm actually pretty ecstatic to have a normal problem at this point, but it has required me to dissasemble the front of the engine.

Check the engine oil for water too.

And the difference in the two starters one for the auto and other one manual, the pinion gear is moved slightly on one from the other.

You have to look close to see it.

And as for the years, I have run the auto mini starter mid 90's on about every 460-429 year c 6 and they worked.

Only problem I have ever had was the auto or manual on the wrong trans.
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