Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

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Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on November 8th 2016, 9:25 am

Hello...

Well here again at another question on components, I guess it would be all simplified if the money tree had grown, but then it would be boring calling a mechanic asking them to build me a car + motor etc. what is the fun in that ?! Apart from more sleep not having to read forums, but its all part of the fun !

So today drama...
Ford 460 - D0VE Cast Heads - Guide Plates - Rocker Studs (not sure type, see pictures)
The rockers are Crane CHEV 1.7 according to Crane.
Push rods are appox 8.66 to 8.7’ length and 5/16 Dia (7.97mm)
Moving from SOLID FLAT to HYD FLAT Cam

Looking to replace valvetrain components - Cam,Lifters,Springs,ChainKit and keep Rockers,Pushrods if possible

My major question at the moment is the Crane Rockers that I have and are they going to be an issue ?! 1.7 vs 1.7x (stock ford)

Never been able to identify who made the old cam (been in touch with a number of cam outlets...) '447HS' Anyone ?!

Reading forums some say its not just ratio its the geometry is the problem ? So a 1.7 Chev vs 1.7 Ford is NOT the same ?

Now have been in touch with Edelbrock, Crane, Lunati, Comp cams...and asked the question will my Chev 1.7 Rockers work with your Cam xxxxx

Edelbrock say the 1.7 Ratio would not pose a problem RPM CAM (#7167) ( I did say on the phone Chev 1.7 rockers, he did not think would be a problem compared to standard ford ratio 1.73? $$)

Crane say they are not sure if the rest of my parts (rockers, pushrods) would fit and then supplied part numbers for all new items $$$. (#353942 ratio 1.71)

Comp Suggest they have a cam and it will work well, no mention of my rocker ratio or if taken into account. $$ (XE274H)

Lunati Suggested a cam , but not heard back regarding if my ratio would work ok $$$ (only find out they are not the standard ratio after asking initial questions)


95% Street Driver
Engine: 460 - .040 (468ci) Balanced Stock Crank / Rods – New Hyp. pistons
Heads: Ford Cast D0VE – Porting has been done to int & exh – Stock Valves – Studs for Roller Rockers
Intake: Edelbrock – Air RPM Air gap – Dual Place (7655)
Exhaust: Extractors into 3’ single Hi Flow Cats
Carb: 850 Holley – Looking to possible go bolt on EFI Body (fitech?)
Push rods are appox 8.66 to 8.7’ length and 5/16 Dia (7.97mm)
Fuel:Pump Gas
Compression 9.79 :1 Static (to be built yet) (calculated)
Tans C6 Auto (no transbrake, just 2 stage shift)
Stall Converter: To be purchased – old was about 2500rpm
Diff 3.23 / tyres 25.5’
Weight: 3395 (1540kg)








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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  rmcomprandy on November 8th 2016, 9:54 am

Chevrolet geometry rocker arms will work at .500" or so valve lift but, not very well. The rocker side is to long and the pushrod cup is at the wrong angle.
When COST is the issue, I have found the least expensive rocker arms with the correct geometry are from Scorpion or Lunati; personal preference is that I prefer the Lunati.

Pushrods seem a bit long but, with a long valve they would be about right.

If you want a Comp Cams shelf grind in that range for your application, I would go with the 34-244-4 for your situation.

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  Straubtech on November 8th 2016, 3:44 pm

Considering Comp, Lunati, and Crane have he same ownership........oh well.

The BBF and BBC have a difference of .140" from trunnion pivot to roller tip axis. Many companies split the difference and use 1 rocker that is .070" long/short. This screws up proper geometry and can get many in trouble.

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  Straubtech on November 8th 2016, 3:44 pm

Double post.


Last edited by Straubtech on November 8th 2016, 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Double post)

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  Scott Foxwell on November 8th 2016, 4:16 pm

Comp shows the same part no. for the BB Ford rocker and BB Chev rocker. They cheaped out and made a part that's somewhere in the middle for both. Neither are right.
Their tech on how to choose push rod length couldn't be more wrong, BUT...if you use their method, it doesn't matter if the rocker is wrong, you just keep adjusting the push rod length till it fits. LOL... Shocked

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  rmcomprandy on November 9th 2016, 12:14 am

Straubtech wrote:Considering Comp, Lunati, and Crane have the same ownership........oh well.

They share a lot of the same ownership within SOME different investment groups ... they still have different parts in their own inventory.

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  BOSS 429 on November 9th 2016, 2:43 am

start with a 1.73 which is correct for a bbf,and then check pushrods,etc
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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on November 9th 2016, 9:03 am

rmcomprandy wrote:Chevrolet geometry rocker arms will work at .500" or so valve lift but, not very well. The rocker side is to long and the pushrod cup is at the wrong angle.
When COST is the issue, I have found the least expensive rocker arms with the correct geometry are from Scorpion or Lunati; personal preference is that I prefer the Lunati.

Pushrods seem a bit long but, with a long valve they would be about right.

If you want a Comp Cams shelf grind in that range for your application, I would go with the 34-244-4 for your situation.

Thinking of a number plate 'moneypit'

Great info from everyone, and looks like need to buy rockers then to replace the current rockers. :-( aaarrrr..... when does it stop... only joking it never will !

Thanks for the response, no preference on brand of cam.

I didnt think about that side of the rocker config, just thought it was about the ratio. As for the cam you have suggested do you think it might be a bit small or stock type cam 34-224-4 ? the bit that gets me is the ''replacement OEM / Great for family Sedans''. In reality I want to the car to be drivable, but also would be happy to have a bit more stick as not daily driver shopping car. Looking at the 'Comp' selection I was guess with the config I was putting together compression, exhaust, intake etc I would look at something more along the lines of a 34-331-4 or something from another company.

Or am I making a big mistake and the bigger cam will only be good for all top RPM only ? I see cams like Lunati, raying power range 1800-6200, or the edelbrock RPM Cam ?

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/cam-search-results.aspx?sc=48&sm=By%20Engine%20Family
34-224-4 252H
Hydraulic-Good replacement for OEM cam. Strong torque and mileage. Very smooth idle. Great for family Sedans.
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=985&sb=0

34-331-4
Hydraulic-Great cam for Street Machines. Needs mild converter, headers and 9:1 compression. Rough idle
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=989&sb=0

OR something like 10340703LK
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2371


Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 227/233
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .552/.564
RPM Range: 1800-6200

OR Edelbrock
2167 (RPM 0 - 5500)
7167 (RPM 1600 - 6500)

Thanks
Rob

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  DaveMcLain on November 9th 2016, 9:33 am

I've heard and also read in Jim Miller's book on rocker arms that the big Ford and some other engines are really a compromise in the rocker arm department and the way the valvetrain is laid out in the engine it should have an intake and exhaust rocker that are different for things to be more ideal.

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  Straubtech on November 9th 2016, 9:55 am

DaveMcLain wrote:I've heard and also read in Jim Miller's book on rocker arms that the big Ford and some other engines are really a compromise in the rocker arm department and the way the valvetrain is laid out in the engine it should have an intake and exhaust rocker that are different for things to be more ideal.

We went to an intake rocker and exhaust rocker on the BBC. Foxwell took an aftermarket heads and based on the valve angle and valve lengths designed a rocker to fit aftermarket BBC heads. It has been a homerun with the DIY guys giving them correct geometry.

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  Straubtech on November 9th 2016, 9:58 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
Straubtech wrote:Considering Comp, Lunati, and Crane have the same ownership........oh well.

They share a lot of the same ownership within SOME different investment groups ... they still have different parts in their own inventory.

The auto manufacturers after decades figured out to be more profitable you change the brand, throw some different lipstick on it and you can sell the same product, turn inventory, and depending on marketing get more money for it.

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  DanE on November 9th 2016, 10:54 am

To the OP;
It is obvious after reading your posts, that your knowledge on camshafts and related valve train parts is limited. AND every man that has replied to your posts is a very knowledgeable in this area. My advice is to contact one of them and purchase a custom cam and related valve train parts. The cost is close to the same and you will get what you need. Also, after dealing with one of these people, your knowledge base will increase. Trying to help. Smile

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  rmcomprandy on November 9th 2016, 11:21 am

bigblockfordfxstb wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:Chevrolet geometry rocker arms will work at .500" or so valve lift but, not very well. The rocker side is to long and the pushrod cup is at the wrong angle.
When COST is the issue, I have found the least expensive rocker arms with the correct geometry are from Scorpion or Lunati; personal preference is that I prefer the Lunati.

Pushrods seem a bit long but, with a long valve they would be about right.

If you want a Comp Cams shelf grind in that range for your application, I would go with the 34-244-4 for your situation.

Thinking of a number plate  'moneypit'

Great info from everyone, and looks like need to buy rockers then to replace the current rockers. :-( aaarrrr..... when does it stop... only joking it never will !

Thanks for the response, no preference on brand of cam.

I didnt think about that side of the rocker config, just thought it was about the ratio. As for the cam you have suggested do you think it might be a bit small or stock type cam 34-224-4 ? the bit that gets me is the ''replacement OEM / Great for family Sedans''. In reality I want to the car to be drivable, but also would be happy to have a bit more stick as not daily driver shopping car. Looking at the 'Comp' selection  I was guess with the config I was putting together compression, exhaust, intake etc I would look at something more along the lines of a 34-331-4 or something from another company.

Or am I making a big mistake and the bigger cam will only be good for all top RPM only ? I see cams like Lunati, raying power range 1800-6200, or the edelbrock RPM Cam ?

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/cam-search-results.aspx?sc=48&sm=By%20Engine%20Family
34-224-4 252H
      Hydraulic-Good replacement for OEM cam. Strong torque and mileage. Very smooth idle. Great for family Sedans.
      http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=985&sb=0

34-331-4
     Hydraulic-Great cam for Street Machines. Needs mild converter, headers and 9:1 compression. Rough idle
     http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=989&sb=0

OR something like  10340703LK
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2371


      Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 227/233
     Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .552/.564
     RPM Range: 1800-6200

OR Edelbrock  
2167 (RPM 0 - 5500)  
7167 (RPM 1600 - 6500)

Thanks
Rob

NOT 34-224-4 ... a 34-244-4 was what I said.  A 34-246-4 may fit but, it will be very close and is probably on the big side for your application.
Single pattern cams do not work well in a big block Ford engine unless it is to be a towing or high mileage, part throttle  application.

Iron "production" heads will not accept much more than .540" lift without the retainer contacting the stem seals.

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  rmcomprandy on November 9th 2016, 11:40 am

rmcomprandy wrote:

NOT 34-224-4 ... a 34-244-4 was what I said.  A 34-246-4 may fit but, it will be very close and is probably on the big side for your application.
Single pattern cams do not work well in a big block Ford engine unless it is to be a towing or high mileage, part throttle  application.

Iron "production" heads will not accept much more than .540" lift without the retainer contacting the stem seals.

34-244-4
268/276@.006" - 222/226@.050" - 130/136@.200" - .535"/.535" theoretical valve lift - 110 separation

34-246-4
276/284@.006" - 228/236@.050" - 140/146@.200" - .547"/.547" theoretical valve lift - 110 separation

I have bought enough of those grinds "custom" that they made part numbers for them.

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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on November 10th 2016, 9:50 am

Sorry my bad on the part number, no idea how I came up with that.

The reasons also for asking number of questions, is am in OZ - So ordering parts the freight is not cheap, so reason why best to order much as possible than to keep costs down .....

Anyway appreciate feedback, this is the  CAM CompCams came back with '230/236 duration at .050" XE274H', and trying to work out what the part number is the best I can see is 34-247-4 -   '230/236 with 0.562 - 0.565

       Hydraulic-High performance street, very strong mid-range 2400+ stall with headers          
       http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=994&sb=2

As you mentioned , going over the 540 lift could start to cause issues with contact on retainer & seals with stock valves.

My valve lengths are (approx)  Intake looks to be 5.240' and exc. 5.067' ?? trying to identify if they are STOCK or NOT ?

Either way, if I look at the model you suggested 34-244-4 or 34-246-4 would the springs, retainers, from the summit cam kit 34-247-4 be suitable ? (not able to find the matching items?)

KIT - https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-k34-247-4/overview/make/ford


Rockers:  Lunati Voodoo Roller Rocker Arms 15380-16 :
Spings: xxxxxxxx
Retainers: xxxxxxx..

With either of the below cams ?

34-244-4
268/276@.006" - 222/226@.050" - 130/136@.200" - .535"/.535" theoretical valve lift - 110 separation

34-246-4
276/284@.006" - 228/236@.050" - 140/146@.200" - .547"/.547" theoretical valve lift - 110 separation

XE274H (34-247-4 ?)   '230/236 with 0.562 - 0.565

I run Vacuum Brakes, do I need an additional Vac canister !





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Re: Rockers - Ratio and Cam advice ? gone mad.... Ford 460

Post  rmcomprandy on November 10th 2016, 10:31 am

Those two cams will work with stock springs but only up to about 4,500 RPM.  The Comp Cams #950 double springs will go much higher. The Comp Cams #911 springs will be a comparable, decent single spring if you need singles.

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