dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 6th 2016, 4:48 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:If the cust want to be there I make time for him,or i just wait to dyno it. some want to be there, I like it when they are.


i hear you , but to me it is what it is if i was there or not . I would have loved to have been there but with work it wasnt going to happen . I feel this is most likely on me for not buying a better set of rods or at least rod bolt upgrade .

Maybe there is more to it , im going sat morning around 10 and i told him to start tearing it down to see the damage . Hopefully we can assess the damage and move forward .
Just sucks ...been working my ass off , getting married This May and was hopeful to race this spring , good thing my fiance loves racing almost as much as me




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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  cobra501 on December 6th 2016, 11:39 pm

A few weeks ago I Tipped over my engine stand. New motor broken before I could hear it run. I'm over it now. I cant fix it by crying or I would. lol replaced the timing cover with a nice piece from Ebay. Kinda ironic but that's where I got it. Still need oilpump and crank. It will come soon enough. Get yours fixed and don't look back. It will be worth it later. Alot of fun ahead of you.
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  cletus66 on December 7th 2016, 12:47 am

DAMN !!! Sorry to hear about this. Mad

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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  BBFTorino on December 7th 2016, 2:24 am

My engine has been blown up for 3 years....Im still crying!! No

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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  Frank Merkl on December 7th 2016, 4:01 am

put the 712 in the car, go to the chassis dyno to get some tunes for Las Vegas ! and this fly's across the the floor of the dyno!



2 pistons, 1 sleeve , and a new set of rods later1 LasVegas Bound!!
When back 2weeks later and broke the dyno!!lol
Frank
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  Paul Kane on December 7th 2016, 2:46 pm

5pointslow wrote:Just got call ...made 620 and 570 ft lbs then rod broke
thinks by pieces the bolt failed...h beam rods...

...after reading alot of storys online of "knock off" h beam rods and arp bolts , im going to assume that is the issue...i bought the rods from an ebay dealer...

There is a lot of internet rhetoric about presumed ARP knock-off rod bolts.  ARP is right down the street from a good friend/colleague's engine shop and an inspector who personally tests ARP fasteners works at his shop in the late afternoons/evenings.  While there are plenty of rod bolt manufacturers that make similar appearing bolts, I don't know that any of them have "ARP 8740" or "ARP 2000" on them.  Similar bolts intended to deceive have been seen with just the numbers alone, but not "ARP" specifically.  There are other specific features to look for that are obvious to the trained eye, but if "ARP" is on the bolt head along with the fastener level number then they are almost certainly ARP fasteners.

Incidentally most any Grade 8, 7/16-20 cap screw should be able support your HP and presumed lower RPM numbers, so it might be better diagnose the engine failure carefully before drawing any final conclusions.
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 7th 2016, 3:44 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
5pointslow wrote:Just got call ...made 620 and 570 ft lbs then rod broke
thinks by pieces the bolt failed...h beam rods...

...after reading alot of storys online of "knock off" h beam rods and arp bolts , im going to assume that is the issue...i bought the rods from an ebay dealer...

There is a lot of internet rhetoric about presumed ARP knock-off rod bolts.  ARP is right down the street from a good friend/colleague's engine shop and an inspector who personally tests ARP fasteners works at his shop in the late afternoons/evenings.  While there are plenty of rod bolt manufacturers that make similar appearing bolts, I don't know that any of them have "ARP 8740" or "ARP 2000" on them.  Similar bolts intended to deceive have been seen with just the numbers alone, but not "ARP" specifically.  There are other specific features to look for that are obvious to the trained eye, but if "ARP" is on the bolt head along with the fastener level number then they are almost certainly ARP fasteners.

Incidentally most any Grade 8, 7/16-20 cap screw should be able support your HP and presumed lower RPM numbers, so it might be better diagnose the engine failure carefully before drawing any final conclusions.


i undertsand that , the shop that dynoed it has a very good reputation and im going off what he has told me over the phone ,its an 1hr and 1/2 away. Im going Sat morning to see it and go from there

From his words the big end of the rod pieces from what blew a hole in the pan , said to look like i caused by rod bolt failure ( this is speculation until looked into more obviously) Said the bearing looked mint and was not starved for oil ect .

my thing is the is hp level i would have thought would have been fine , but to your point on bolts i will look but im 99 % sure they are arp 8740, and not arp 2000.

I did not assemble the engine and confident the shop locally that did it did everything fine , only reason i didnt use there dyno was he said he was not setup to do a bbf . So i went to Bouchers racing engines in rowley ma , he does alot of stock and stock eliminator motors to boot .
I probly should have went there from get go

IT IS WHAT IT IS , im not crying over it im a lot younger  than most of you and i know i dont know everything or damn as near as much as you guys do. i accept this based on if it is fault by part in which i used ....it sucks but i will piece somthing together and give it another shot.
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  pmrphil on December 7th 2016, 6:49 pm

Tom Boucher is an extremely knowledgeable engine man. You can believe what he thinks is the cause, he's seen a lot. And there are a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation. They normally show up in counterfeit rods. Had a customer bring in a set of "Eagle" H-beam rods, only they weren't Eagle. I've been a distributor for 15 years and the rods AND bolts were bogus. I showed him a set right in the box (as his were) and the differences were hard to miss, especially side by side. I have seen counterfeit "ARP" head studs also. The lettering is not precise is one way to identify them, among others. Ya gotta be careful where you buy.

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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 7th 2016, 8:38 pm

pmrphil wrote:Tom Boucher is an extremely knowledgeable engine man. You can believe what he thinks is the cause, he's seen a lot. And there are a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation. They normally show up in counterfeit rods. Had a customer bring in a set of "Eagle" H-beam rods, only they weren't Eagle. I've been a distributor for 15 years and the rods AND bolts were bogus. I showed him a set right in the box (as his were) and the differences were hard to miss, especially side by side. I have seen counterfeit "ARP" head studs also. The lettering is not precise is one way to identify them, among others. Ya gotta be careful where you buy.

Tom is great guy very knowledgeable, he will be doing my next engine
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 10th 2016, 5:34 pm

[img]https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/18/28/83/34/20161211.jpg[/img

Made 628 hp at 6300
539 ft lbs at 4500. ...I miss quoted thought he said 570
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 10th 2016, 5:39 pm

Sorry trying to load pictures from cell phone

Have dyno sheet
This was at 35 degrees timing vp113
Oil pressure at 60 pounds all the way through pull

I lucked out cylinder head is fine valves did not get hit
Camshaft as well perfect

Cracked cylinder wall.....machine another block and 2 pistons , and a set of rods with arp2000 bolts
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 10th 2016, 5:40 pm

All and all on my ride up there today I was expecting the worse obviously this is not good but considering there's a lot of parts that are still good and salvageable makes me feel good.

Heads not damaged was huge , randys cam still perfect
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  Carl on December 10th 2016, 6:33 pm

I'm with Paul on this. The likelyhood of an error by the engine builder, or the dyno operator causing the failure is far greater than a bolt failure. Your power levels and RPM aren't even close to approaching the limits of that bolt....unless maybe it was a "2-ton special" piston from Speed-pro. Even then, the pistons speeds are just too low on a stock stroke to really stress that bolt.

For what it's worth, Scat rods and bolts have their name on them....as do Eagle, and RPM. I don't know that I've ever seen a no-name low cost 6.605 H-beam, so probably not some sinister plot, but either a error someplace else, or maybe just a freak bolt failure. Sometimes things go sideways, and there's just no obvious explanation. If ARP2000's make you feel better, that's fine, but please don't go telling everyone within earshot that 8740's aren't up to the job. Too many of us have run them under conditions far exceeding this failure for that to be true.

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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 10th 2016, 6:57 pm

Carl wrote:I'm with Paul on this.  The likelyhood of an error by the engine builder, or the dyno operator causing the failure is far greater than a bolt failure.  Your power levels and RPM aren't even close to approaching the limits of that bolt....unless maybe it was a "2-ton special" piston from Speed-pro.  Even then, the pistons speeds are just too low on a stock stroke to really stress that bolt.

For what it's worth, Scat rods and bolts have their name on them....as do Eagle, and RPM.  I don't know that I've ever seen a no-name low cost 6.605 H-beam, so probably not some sinister plot, but either a error someplace else, or maybe just a freak bolt failure.  Sometimes things go sideways, and there's just no obvious explanation.  If ARP2000's make you feel better, that's fine, but please don't go telling everyone within earshot that 8740's aren't up to the job.  Too many of us have run them under conditions far exceeding this failure for that to be true.

Never once said 8740 are junk or anything just might have been better to have 2000 if this was the failure, this is a freak thing I understand that . I would have assumed what I had in good conditions was good to 800 hp . My pistons are icon forged as well. Not knocking anything other than my wallet right now


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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 12th 2016, 7:32 am




small stud is from oil pan


rod bolt is broke , but like i said before im not saying its the rod bolt or rod failure. Maybe the shop that asembled my shortblock didnt tourque one bolt correctly

the rod bolt could have broken after the rod broke as well from force assuming
trying to load dyno sheet , i have it on my cell phone
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  pmrphil on December 12th 2016, 9:50 am

Probably the best way to figure what happened is to send one of the other rods with the bolts back to Scat and have it checked. Inexpensive, yet may answer the question of bogus rod/bolts or installation mistake. Might as well send the broken one also.

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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 12th 2016, 10:40 am

pmrphil wrote:Probably the best way to figure what happened is to send one of the other rods with the bolts back to Scat and have it checked. Inexpensive, yet may answer the question of bogus rod/bolts or installation mistake. Might as well send the broken one also.

these are not scat rods , i got them off ebay ( i was under the impression they were )
i will look at the writing on the side , but it has 6.605 in big etching on side of them as well
bolts say "arp 8740 "

like others stated it i dont think it was rod or bolt at this hp level or rpm unless a freak defect ...im not sure not going to sweat it now
with holidays approaching right after the first of the year im bring a block to bouchers and having him go through it probly get a set of eagle rods

one thing for sure is i shouldnt have had local shop machine and assemble my shortblock and then bring to other shop (bouchers for dyno)
i feel i should have kept it under one roof and not buy my steak at grocery store and then bring it to the resturaunt . This may not of been the issue but who knows i have learned Tom boucher attention to detail is very good and by the looks of his wall in shop of all the stock and stock eliminators cars he builds engines for speaks for itself . And the national record holder plaques on the wall as well . he was doing two aluminum pro mod engines as well while i was there

i appreciate the input from all , Randys cam he had ground for me didnt get any damage and made a nice flat curve .
i cant wait for round 2
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 12th 2016, 10:57 am




6300 rpm- 628 hp
4800 rpm -544 ft lbs
were the highs

maybe some of you guys can disect this better than i can of opinions on curve to me it looks good and flat
60lbs of oil pressure as well

this was the pull before the one that broke
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 12th 2016, 11:29 am




got lucky... chamber has little to no damage ( little mark north of spark plug hole) Valves look good as well
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  Paul Kane on December 12th 2016, 12:49 pm

pmrphil wrote:...there are a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation. They normally show up in counterfeit rods. Had a customer bring in a set of "Eagle" H-beam rods, only they weren't Eagle. I've been a distributor for 15 years and the rods AND bolts were bogus...I have seen counterfeit "ARP" head studs also. The lettering is not precise is one way to identify them...
If there are "a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation" then please show us all these counterfeit "ARP" rod bolts. And if fake ARP bolt production is so damn rampant then please show us the page on ARP's website that warns us all on how to spot them.  Do not point to the "APR" bolts because while a bolt that says "APR" 8740 is certainly deceptive as hell it is not counterfeit technically speaking--an "APR" bolt is about as counterfeit as a $99 dollar bill.

Mine is not a debate on semantics, it's a correction to internet rhetoric.
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 12th 2016, 1:10 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
pmrphil wrote:...there are a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation. They normally show up in counterfeit rods. Had a customer bring in a set of "Eagle" H-beam rods, only they weren't Eagle. I've been a distributor for 15 years and the rods AND bolts were bogus...I have seen counterfeit "ARP" head studs also. The lettering is not precise is one way to identify them...
If there are "a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation" then please show us all these counterfeit "ARP" rod bolts. And if fake ARP bolt production is so damn rampant then please show us the page on ARP's website that warns us all on how to spot them.  Do not point to the "APR" bolts because while a bolt that says "APR" 8740 is certainly deceptive as hell it is not counterfeit technically speaking--an "APR" a bolt is about as counterfeit as a $99 dollar bill.

Mine is not a debate on semantics, it's a straight up correction to your regurgitated internet rhetoric.  ARP is right down the street from us.

who is saying this is a fake arp bolt ? these bolts clearly say "arp 8740"  on them
the rods i thought were scat , there an other offshore rod not sure brand
They say 6.605 on them in big text on the beam ( came from ebay )

i am not running my mouth over a damn bolt or a rod ( bashing any companys), this whole thread started as a guess the hp my engine its going to the dyno and then i updated it broke on dyno . I then took pictures  of what went wrong , if you or anyone else wants to point finger at the assembly, rod or bolt  be my guest .

Im not the type to internet bash the bolt company or anything else of that



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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  5pointslow on December 12th 2016, 1:33 pm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/H-beam-750HP-Falcon-connecting-rods-6-605-Ford-460-/150558530681?hash=item230dfcdc79:m:mSH9XhJu2T-Ap0NCuIKrwvg&vxp=mtr

these are the rods i used ...i looked back in my ebay history
i thought i ordered scat rods but these are Falcon rods


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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  pmrphil on December 12th 2016, 1:56 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
pmrphil wrote:...there are a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation. They normally show up in counterfeit rods. Had a customer bring in a set of "Eagle" H-beam rods, only they weren't Eagle. I've been a distributor for 15 years and the rods AND bolts were bogus...I have seen counterfeit "ARP" head studs also. The lettering is not precise is one way to identify them...
If there are "a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation" then please show us all these counterfeit "ARP" rod bolts. And if fake ARP bolt production is so damn rampant then please show us the page on ARP's website that warns us all on how to spot them.  Do not point to the "APR" bolts because while a bolt that says "APR" 8740 is certainly deceptive as hell it is not counterfeit technically speaking--an "APR" bolt is about as counterfeit as a $99 dollar bill.

Mine is not a debate on semantics, it's a correction to internet rhetoric.

Hi Paul
Instead of slicing me up for what I've seen (NOT online) why don't you show the pics to your friend who works at ARP and ask him if the finish on the shank of that bolt would ever pass Q.C.
I don't collect or keep forever any junk that passes through the shop, but I do see it. And I'm not an expert, but this is what I do for a living.

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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  Paul Kane on December 12th 2016, 2:36 pm

5pointslow wrote:
Paul Kane wrote:
pmrphil wrote:...there are a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation. They normally show up in counterfeit rods. Had a customer bring in a set of "Eagle" H-beam rods, only they weren't Eagle. I've been a distributor for 15 years and the rods AND bolts were bogus...I have seen counterfeit "ARP" head studs also. The lettering is not precise is one way to identify them...
If there are "a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation" then please show us all these counterfeit "ARP" rod bolts. And if fake ARP bolt production is so damn rampant then please show us the page on ARP's website that warns us all on how to spot them.  Do not point to the "APR" bolts because while a bolt that says "APR" 8740 is certainly deceptive as hell it is not counterfeit technically speaking--an "APR" a bolt is about as counterfeit as a $99 dollar bill.

Mine is not a debate on semantics, it's a straight up correction to your regurgitated internet rhetoric.

who is saying this is a fake arp bolt ? these bolts clearly say "arp 8740"  on them
I don't think anyone in this thread said your bolts were fake; the fake bolt talk is a separate discussion within the topic.

__________________________________


pmrphil wrote:
Paul Kane wrote:
pmrphil wrote:...there are a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation. They normally show up in counterfeit rods. Had a customer bring in a set of "Eagle" H-beam rods, only they weren't Eagle. I've been a distributor for 15 years and the rods AND bolts were bogus...I have seen counterfeit "ARP" head studs also. The lettering is not precise is one way to identify them...
If there are "a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation" then please show us all these counterfeit "ARP" rod bolts. And if fake ARP bolt production is so damn rampant then please show us the page on ARP's website that warns us all on how to spot them.  Do not point to the "APR" bolts because while a bolt that says "APR" 8740 is certainly deceptive as hell it is not counterfeit technically speaking--an "APR" bolt is about as counterfeit as a $99 dollar bill.

Mine is not a debate on semantics, it's a correction to internet rhetoric.

Hi Paul
Instead of slicing me up for what I've seen (NOT online) why don't you show the pics to your friend who works at ARP and ask him if the finish on the shank of that bolt would ever pass Q.C.
I don't collect or keep forever any junk that passes through the shop, but I do see it. And I'm not an expert, but this is what I do for a living.
1) I am not "slicing you up," pmrphil, I'm posting that "APR" is not a counterfeit bolt by any means and that such a marking is intended to fool those who don't pay attention.  Am I not allowed to post my thoughts???

2) (Since you went there:) And I am not the one posting rhetoric by stating "there are a LOT of counterfeit "ARP" bolts in circulation," and so I have no obligation to post pics. If you've seen so damn many of them then please show us.

Sheez, what's going on in this forum?????
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Re: dyno next week any hp guess's ///rod picture damage and dyno sheet added

Post  Mark Miller on December 13th 2016, 12:09 am

5pointslow wrote:
pmrphil wrote:Probably the best way to figure what happened is to send one of the other rods with the bolts back to Scat and have it checked. Inexpensive, yet may answer the question of bogus rod/bolts or installation mistake. Might as well send the broken one also.

these are not scat rods , i got them off ebay ( i was under the impression they were )
i will look at the writing on the side , but it has 6.605 in big etching on side of them as well
bolts say "arp 8740 "

like others stated it i dont think it was rod or bolt at this hp level or rpm unless a freak defect ...im not sure not going to sweat it now
with holidays approaching right after the first of the year im bring a block to bouchers and having him go through it probly get a set of eagle rods

one thing for sure is i shouldnt have had local shop machine and assemble my shortblock and then bring to other shop (bouchers for dyno)
i feel i should have kept it under one roof and not buy my steak at grocery store and then bring it to the resturaunt . This may not of been the issue but who knows i have learned Tom boucher attention to detail is very good and by the looks of his wall in shop of all the stock and stock eliminators cars he builds engines for speaks for itself . And the national record holder plaques on the wall as well . he was doing two aluminum pro mod engines as well while i was there

i appreciate the input from all , Randys cam he had ground for me didnt get any damage and made a nice flat curve .
i cant wait for round 2

The cam Randy had ground for you is a Solid Flat Tappet not Solid Roller correct?

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