viable combo for nostalgic gasser

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viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  southcross on July 1st 2017, 8:27 am

I have a Morris Minor straight axle Gasser and have a 306 Ford in it now. I have been wondering if a 429 could be a viable option to make the move to a higher class.
These cars are weight per cubic inch and a .030 over 429 would have to weigh 2610 lbs. with me in the car. These cars are clutch assisted manual 4 speed cars.
No electronics except rev limiter . Kaase P-51 heads or AFR heads are the only aftermarket approved head. This car is for the Southeast Gassers group.
Limited to 4150 style carbs single or dual or stack injection. OEM iron heads get a 50 lb. weight break, but that would not be enough to offset the h.p. of the aftermarket heads.
A 150 lb. weight break for mechanical stack injection. So that is a viable option. Gasoline only no E-85 or methanol. Race gas is allowed.
I have a mint 429 block and crank and don't mind the fabrication that it will take to stuff it into this little car. I know I could build a stroked Windsor and build a 427, but this is for fun and it would be different. Externally it must look like it was built with 1967 and older parts. Internally it don't matter.
Any suggestions as to what combo would be best using the 429 . Remember the more cubes , the more weight A/GAS is 6.00 lbs. per cube. C/gas is 8.00 per cube.
I have an excellent machine shop that I deal with and I am an experienced engine builder, just haven't built a 385 race motor before. Have built several for trucks and cars while working at a ford dealership.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  rmcomprandy on July 1st 2017, 9:55 am

Personally ... I would go with a high RPM, tunnel ram .030" over-bored 429 using P-51 heads.

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Post  southcross on July 2nd 2017, 7:57 am

How about some piston recommendations. Rod's Ford or aftermarket. Camshaft recommendations. Car has a 5.29 Gear, rules say max tire is a 31 x11. Liberty prepped wide ratio toploader. Figure 2650 on the weight 1/8 th mile only. Don't need or want a lot of torque.
Thanks for the response to a high rpm .030 over 429. That was my thinking.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  maverick on July 2nd 2017, 9:25 am

I think if you're keeping the 5.29 gear you'll spin the snot out of it. That 4-speed trans will make 1st gear a VERY BRIEF affair if you can use it at all.. With the planned high rpm, you need some good rods for sure.


Btw, this thing sounds like it'll be a hoot to drive. Cool
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Post  southcross on July 2nd 2017, 10:46 am

I have a 4.56 gear if the 5.29 is too much. It is a 88 inch wheelbase car so yes it will be a hoot to drive. The competitive A/Gas cars run mid 5's in the 1/8th. If I can get to 5.70 or 80 it will be quick enough to play with the big boys.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  whitefield on July 2nd 2017, 11:40 am

rmcomprandy wrote:Personally ... I would go with a high RPM, tunnel ram .030" over-bored 429 using P-51 heads.


Twisted Evil Cool Thats what I am talking about !
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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  supervel45 on July 2nd 2017, 4:35 pm

Are they streching that "1967 Looking" rule for the big Windsors and 429-460?

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Post  southcross on July 2nd 2017, 10:24 pm

They are allowing the stroked windors because of the stroked 434 small block Chevys. There are a few 427 Clevelands running . Technically the 385 was a 68 model motor , but was released in September of 1967. So it fits the rules. There is a guy running a 427 SOHC motor in a 55 Ford that is bad. There is a 427 tunnel port in a 41 Willys.
Look up the southeastgassers.com and check out the videos and rules.
The engines have to look period correct on the outside.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  supervel45 on July 2nd 2017, 11:16 pm

OK thanks, I was just wondering. I suspect you will likely have to get some custom pistons for a 429 to do what you want. Just not that much off the shelf for them sadly. I think I would be looking for a tunnel ram for what you are doing and a couple of 850DP's or center squirter. 4223 and 4543 is the List number for the old 850CS's if you are after them.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  DILLIGASDAVE on July 3rd 2017, 4:15 am

Their rim rules regarding the aluminum slots are kinda wonky IMO. I really don't see why there is a problem using any of the "non legal" aluminum slots, IMO they all look "close enough" to be from that era. But on the other hand they are OK with a modern radial slick??

Also if modern electronic ignitions aren't allowed (MSD) are magnetos allowed? If so can they be a Mallory Mag, or do they have to be something like the Vertex/Joe Hunt Mags?

I also don't get the opposition to coil overs or auto transmissions, didn't some gassers of that late 60's era have them? It's a little too "new" but IIRC Ohio George's 1969 Mustang gasser had coil overs with a straight front axle. Also if it has to have a "clutch" what about using a clutch-flite/clutch-turbo trans?

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Post  southcross on July 3rd 2017, 7:26 am

Yes their rules seem funny to some , but the 60 plus cars that run now and the 50 plus that are being built seem to be just fine with them.
You run an MSD with a black cap and hide the box. Must be inline carbs for next season so 660's will be in order unless 2 double pumpers will fit inline.
I may start with a single 1050 4150 style carb. Custom pistons are not that bad. Probably start with a mechanical flat tappet cam as I am retired on a fixed income and my play money comes from me building cars for other people.
There is one car with coil overs and that is Gene Cromer whose Willys had them on in 1966 at the Indy Nationals . His is one of 2 cars that have been grandfathered in with automatics. He is 82 years old and still getting it done.
the head man for the group is Quain Stott former Pro Mod world Champion in the Lee Boy Corvette.
Due to space confinements I am using a coil spring ladder bar setup. A lot of racers are using mono leaf with floaters.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  rmcomprandy on July 3rd 2017, 9:45 am

DILLIGASDAVE wrote:Their rim rules regarding the aluminum slots are kinda wonky IMO. I really don't see why there is a problem using any of the "non legal" aluminum slots, IMO they all look "close enough" to be from that era. But on the other hand they are OK with a modern radial slick??

Also if modern electronic ignitions aren't allowed (MSD) are magnetos allowed? If so can they be a Mallory Mag, or do they have to be something like the Vertex/Joe Hunt Mags?

I also don't get the opposition to coil overs or auto transmissions, didn't some gassers of that late 60's era have them? It's a little too "new" but IIRC Ohio George's 1969 Mustang gasser had coil overs with a straight front axle. Also if it has to have a "clutch" what about using a clutch-flite/clutch-turbo trans?


These rules seem to be all about fan recognition and identifying with that old stuff for getting people coming out to watch them in order to get the purse higher; the racing is secondary although real.

I have been there ... they pack the stands for those events

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  supervel45 on July 3rd 2017, 11:23 am

southcross wrote: Yes their rules seem funny to some , but the 60 plus cars that run now and the 50 plus that are being built seem to be just fine with them.
 You run an MSD with a black cap and hide the box. Must be inline carbs for next season so 660's will be in order unless 2 double pumpers will fit inline.
  I may start with a single 1050 4150 style carb. Custom pistons are not that bad. Probably start with a mechanical flat tappet cam as I am retired on a fixed income and my play money comes from me building cars for other people.
  There is one car with coil overs and that is Gene Cromer whose Willys had them on in 1966 at the Indy Nationals . His is one of 2 cars that have been grandfathered in with automatics. He is 82 years old and still getting it done.
  the head man for the group is Quain Stott former Pro Mod world Champion in the Lee Boy Corvette.
  Due to space confinements I am using a coil spring ladder bar setup. A lot of racers are using mono leaf with floaters.

850's and bigger will work with either side hung bowls and, or offset adapters on most Big Block tunnel rams.  On the old List# 6109 Holley 750DP dual quad carburetor's they used two barrel primary side hung bowls front and rear to eliminate the transfer tube and plumed fuel lines to all four bowls.
PS: If you go this route be aware that your rear float level setting may be a little different because the front bowls have the sight plug (Higher) in a different location than rear bowls. A lot will depend on the angle of the engine and the stance of the car.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  supervel45 on July 3rd 2017, 12:47 pm

southcross wrote: I have a Morris Minor straight axle Gasser and have a 306 Ford in it now. I have been wondering if a 429 could be a viable option to make the move to a higher class.
 These cars are weight per cubic inch and a .030 over 429 would have to weigh 2610 lbs. with me in the car. These cars are clutch assisted manual 4 speed cars.
 No electronics except rev limiter . Kaase P-51 heads or AFR heads are the only aftermarket approved head. This car is for the Southeast Gassers group.
 Limited to 4150 style carbs single or dual or stack injection. OEM iron heads get a 50 lb. weight break, but that would not be enough to offset the h.p. of the aftermarket heads.
 A 150 lb. weight break for mechanical stack injection. So that is a viable option. Gasoline only no E-85 or methanol. Race gas is allowed.
  I have a mint 429 block and crank and don't mind the fabrication that it will take to stuff it into this little car. I know I could build a stroked Windsor and build a 427, but this is for fun and it would be different. Externally it must look like it was built with 1967 and older parts. Internally it don't matter.
 Any suggestions as to what combo would be best using the 429 . Remember the more cubes , the more weight A/GAS is 6.00 lbs. per cube. C/gas is 8.00 per cube.
  I have an excellent machine shop that I deal with and I am an experienced engine builder, just haven't built a 385 race motor before. Have built several for trucks and cars while working at a ford dealership.
 

Are you sure about that 2610lb weight number? I come up with about 2766 for AGas with a 150lb driver.

http://www.performanceboats.com/parts-sale/270345-brand-new-holley-carburators.html

^^^^ Show's the 6109's 850's and up can be set up the same way and you can convert them to 1X1 lingage with a simple secondary link change.

http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/html/kaase_p-51_-_big_block_ford_wedge_cylinder_heads.html

^^^ Might check this build out. I think with a 429 you will need a little north of 7,000 RPM on your deal and a lot of carburetor or carburetor's. Those 660's are kind of over gloried 600's with a 750 base plate and more aimed at small blocks or mild big blocks in my opinion.

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Post  southcross on July 3rd 2017, 5:12 pm

435 x6.0 = 2610 . Including the driver. My car weighs about 2350 lbs. with the 306 and I would have to add weight to make the C/Gas class and it would not make enough power to
run A/Gas.
It is a 12.0 to 1 306 with Mahle pistons Scat rods , .612 solid roller cam with ported aluminum heads. Victor intake with a 950 Holley. Right at 500 hp. at 7800.
That's why I want to go with the 429 and not bigger so I won't have to throw a bunch of weight in the car.
Thanks for the info on the carbs. I will probably get them on order.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  DILLIGASDAVE on July 4th 2017, 3:16 am

Sorry if this is a side-track but after reading the rules again I have soooo many questions the PDF's didn't address.

(1) They allow 10% engine setback, but no mention of what is allowed as far as moving the firewall/floor/trans tunnel. Can the stock firewall/floor/trans tunnel be moved? Can they be replaced/replicated with sheet metal or sheet aluminum?

(2) They allow replacing the factory/OEM perimeter frame (and I'm guessing also a uni-body's sheet metal "frame") with box/rec tubing, (in effect a "full chassis" car). Can part of this box/rec tubing frame be visible inside the car through the floor, or does the frame (new or old) have to be 100% under the floor?

(3) When they say no "round tube" chassis (only box/rec tubing) does this only apply to the main frame rails them selves? Or do other frame/chassis structures (like main crossmembers, ladder bar crossmembers, outer stringers for the roll cage to sit on, etc, etc) also have to be made of box/rec tubing as well?

(4) When they say "era correct" ladder bars are they only referring to long ladder bars? Or are they also talking about their construction (like box tubing vs round tubing, rod-end types/styles, housing bracket shapes, etc, etc)?

(5) When they say "chassis may only be 1 1/2" below rocker panel" does this also include front ladder bar brackets? Or can they be lower for more adjustment holes?

(6) "Must have 4 wheel brakes". For greater safety can they be disk brakes, or do they have to be era correct drum brakes?

(7) Where do you get/what do you use for "era correct" straight front axle/spindles & leaf springs? TBH I have no idea what was used back then, or what "modern" equipment could be made/altered to pass as era correct.

( 8 ) Grandfathered "pro style aluminum front engine plate". Are they saying using any/all front aluminum motor plate will be illegal at some point in the future? Or are they saying just the "modern" looking Pro Stock style motor plates will eventually be illegal, but front motor plates in general will be OK?

IMO it wouldn't make any sense to eventually outlaw any/all front aluminum motor plates since some gassers did use them back then. They didn't only use the OEM/factory side mounts 100% of the time.

(9) Also are using mid plate engine mounts between the block & clutch can legal?

(10) Can the brake & clutch pedal be hung from the floor, or do they have to hang under the dash?
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Post  southcross on July 4th 2017, 6:07 am

Those are all good questions. If you look on the HAMB . You will see Quain Stott's step by step of his build on his Willys coupe. There are several other Southeast Gasser builds on that site.
Disc brakes are allowed, Some source their front axles from Speedway. Mine is a narrowed 1954 F100 axle that I was given that already had disc brakes. I drilled it to lighten it. Square tube is the rule for the Chassis. With the set back you can use steel or aluminum to fabricate the firewall and tranny tunnel and floors. The ladder bars can hang lower than the rocker panel rule. I am not sure on the motor plate rule as I built my car with side mounts. A mid plate is being used to control the fore and aft movement of the motor. The pedals can be floor mounted or hang mechanical clutch linkage or hydraulic or cable.
Hightower is one of the sponsors , so a lot of the racers use them. I found my top loader that had 25 passes on it so that is what is in my car.
This is a photo of my car in the building stage so you can get an idea of what is legal chassis wise.

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Post  southcross on July 4th 2017, 6:09 am

The phot would not post . I must be doing something wrong. My build is on the HAMB site as well.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  DILLIGASDAVE on July 4th 2017, 10:13 am

Stott's build pics on the HAMB don't show up there anymore. His photobucket account might be over the bandwidth limit.

Your pics can't be uploaded here. You have to first host your pics elsewhere (like photobucket) and then post the links here for your pics to show up here.

So I guess even a ladder bar crossmember has to be box tubing cuz it's a "chassis" part?

Funny how they allow some aftermarket aluminum 460 heads with the valves & chambers moved around (P-51 & AFR heads), but no mention of aluminum heads with factory valve angles/placements (like say the old Edelbrock 460 heads or the old Ford motorsport 6049-A429 heads).
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Post  southcross on July 4th 2017, 10:40 am

No tube ladder bars are o.k. I am building 2x3 tubing bars because the were before the modern ladder bars. I am lightening them with holes for looks and to lose some weight.
I think the just picked the best heads for the 385 motors. you can call Quain if you have a different head you want to run. It is on a case by case basis. He is a Chevy guy and confers with the Ford guys who run with the Group. He just wants a level playing field for everyone. Notice he gives 1/2 lb. per cube weight breaks to the old style motors like the FE and 409 Chevy.
I asked him about Pontiac for a guy and said it would get the weight break. They are starting a SEGA division in Texas to give some more racers a chance to join in the fun without having to tow so far.
Just find an old Falcon or Comet or Fairlane throw a straight axle under it and build you one. Heads up no break out. No handicap, first one to finish line wins.
Check out their videos.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  50 f1 on July 4th 2017, 1:08 pm

I went to



sega event in Knoxville they are fun it seems more grassroots and not such a cookie cutter world .the rules say gas only my nose says there was some alky being burned not a problem by me ,probably a plus for injected car tuning .Tere rule may seem strage but they put on a good show I think the 4 speeds and single disc clutches they require are the weak part making low torque high rpm light weight small motors the most reliable on drive train 520 inch torque monster with the extra weight required will be hard on 4 speeds

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Post  southcross on July 4th 2017, 1:36 pm

They require gasoline only. It can be race gas. The small blocks in A/Gas are running 400 plus motors except for the Anglia White trash who runs a 380-390 inch small block
Some are 434 inches and there are some 427 inch Windsors and Clevelands. So why not a .030 over 429 high rpm big block at 2610 lbs.? There are 55 Chevys with big blocks.
I just think when I tilt the front end and it is wall to wall motor that will be impressive. With aluminum heads and intake What's a 429 weigh? It will be set back 10% of the 88 inch wheelbase any way. I have a 9 inch with 40 spline axles and 1350 U Joints and a strange carrier so it should hold up. The sintered iron single disc clutches are pretty violent , but letting go of my transbrake button with a 5800 stall convertor was not easy on parts either. If it was easy there would be 300 cars instead of 60.

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  rmcomprandy on July 4th 2017, 7:04 pm

southcross wrote:They require gasoline only. It can be race gas. The small blocks in A/Gas are running 400 plus motors except for the Anglia White trash who runs a 380-390 inch small block
 Some are 434 inches and there are some 427 inch Windsors and Clevelands. So why not a .030 over 429 high rpm big block at 2610 lbs.? There are 55 Chevys with big blocks.
 I just think when I tilt the front end and it is wall to wall motor that will be impressive. With aluminum heads and intake What's a 429 weigh? It will be set back 10% of the 88 inch wheelbase any way. I have a 9 inch with 40 spline axles and 1350 U Joints and a strange carrier so it should hold up. The sintered iron single disc clutches are pretty violent , but letting go of my transbrake button with a 5800 stall convertor was not easy on parts either. If it was easy there would be 300 cars instead of 60.

How do you get in touch with anyone in a position of authority ...?

Their website has no "contact us" or any other process what-so-ever listed for someone to contact them.

I would be interested in C/Gas with a '62 Dodge dart with an early 60's Dual-Quad Plymouth 318 Poly small block engine but, they don't even list that engine as being legal ... when it was not even offered after 1966; only before.

How do I discuss this with somebody in charge ???

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Re: viable combo for nostalgic gasser

Post  rmcomprandy on July 4th 2017, 7:28 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
southcross wrote:They require gasoline only. It can be race gas. The small blocks in A/Gas are running 400 plus motors except for the Anglia White trash who runs a 380-390 inch small block
 Some are 434 inches and there are some 427 inch Windsors and Clevelands. So why not a .030 over 429 high rpm big block at 2610 lbs.? There are 55 Chevys with big blocks.
 I just think when I tilt the front end and it is wall to wall motor that will be impressive. With aluminum heads and intake What's a 429 weigh? It will be set back 10% of the 88 inch wheelbase any way. I have a 9 inch with 40 spline axles and 1350 U Joints and a strange carrier so it should hold up. The sintered iron single disc clutches are pretty violent , but letting go of my transbrake button with a 5800 stall convertor was not easy on parts either. If it was easy there would be 300 cars instead of 60.

How do you get in touch with anyone in a position of authority ...?

Their website has no "contact us" or any other process what-so-ever listed for someone to contact them.

I would be interested in C/Gas with a '62 Dodge dart with an early 60's Dual-Quad Plymouth 318 Poly small block engine but, they don't even list that engine as being legal ... when it was not even offered after 1966; only before.

How do I discuss this with somebody in charge ???

Never mind ... got a private message where an email address was pointed out to me at the end of the engine rules package.

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Post  southcross on July 4th 2017, 7:34 pm

Try this email address . quainstott@live.com.
He might even give you a half lb. weight break with that old of an engine.

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