429/460 Overheating Issue

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Mark Miller on July 25th 2017, 11:40 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:yes it WILL,  A stats job is not to cool an engine, its to keep it a min 5 + deg's of what ever its set for


might still need 2 fans if your are not enough cfm, need a min of 4000 with a bbf

I'll take the thermostat out this Sunday and let you know how it went.I still have the electric fan in the front of the radiator plus a mechanical fan.

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any pictures of your shroud?

Post  Speedwaypj on July 26th 2017, 9:42 am

Mark Do you have any pictures of your shroud, as I need to fabricate one for my 429 Cobra? I also am interested in your results of removing the T-Stat.
Thanks, PJ

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Mark Miller on July 26th 2017, 11:48 pm

Speedwaypj wrote:Mark Do you have any pictures of your shroud, as I need to fabricate one for my 429 Cobra?  I also am interested in your results of removing the T-Stat.
Thanks, PJ

The shroud i'm using is off of a 91 5.0 Mustang.I probably have some pictures of the fan shroud somewhere on my computer i could e-mail you if interested?I'll post the results on here after removing the thermostat,probably won't be until Sunday that's my next day off.

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latest update.....no real difference

Post  Speedwaypj on August 9th 2017, 9:28 pm

still overheating......no real difference ....Motor runs great!
So I’ve tried several combinations and the engine seems to want to run hot....actually ..

Overview; ‘69 429 stroked to 460, 9k on engine – bought in ‘71 – now sitting in Cobra rpl frame.
Fresh build – everything changed out (crank/rods/pistons/cam/springs/all bearings/rockers/Hi flow oil pump/ hi flow water pump – (with new backing plate)/Dissy/Holley 750/intake/starter – all except heads n valves.
I’ve run this motor for about 15 hrs over several months;
I’ve replaced the left bank head gasket because it was incorrect. Gasket and block and head looked great.
Running 6-blade Flex-Fan with shroud.
Radiator – New Hi per aluminum ($500) – took off and flushed – its clear
Initial timing @ 16 (tried 6, 8, 12, 18)

Issue – pushes qt of antifreeze out before it even gets hot – tends to run Hot. Even tried the 180 T-Stat...again...
Put 21# radiator cap on and it didn’t push any water out, but wanted to get up in temp (220 – 235)
It acts as though there is an air pocket. I bought a non-spill funnel to get air bubbles out....ran it for about 45 minutes on a steep incline, a few bubbles, but then it just overheated and blasted antifreeze all over...(235 F).
Tried funnel a second time...same – pushed out 1 – 1/2 qt antifreeze.
Ran compression test – 175; 170; 165; 170; 165; 170; 174; 175 – with closed throttle (couldn’t do WOT and crank).
(9K miles; std pistons; honed cyl only)

I need to turn on aux garage fan to keep it down to 210 after 1/2 hr.
====================================
Seems like large air pocket......I can’t get air out.....
1. so I ordered a -
Automotive Radiator Cooling System Vacuum Purge and Refill Radiator Kit CarTruck
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Automotive-Radiator-Cooling-System-Vacuum-Purge-and-Refill-Radiator-Kit-CarTruck-/142190462226?hash=item211b364512&item=142190462226&vxp=mtr

2. Someone mentioned running bleed lines from the back of the engine to the water outlet. So I plan to drill/tap the back end of the Edelbrock manifold where the rear head water ports hit the manifold. (The stock manifold has a water passage across the back). Then tie the hoses together and run it to the top of the goose neck...and maybe put a bleeder valve on top of that.
If anyone has done this please chime in as I’ll take any information available.
There’s a zillion BBFs out there, Help......
PJ



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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on August 9th 2017, 11:18 pm

Do not get misled by the term "Hi Flow" water pump.

A stock O.E.M. water pump will flow more coolant at lower RPM however, will level out as RPM rises. Where as most pumps advertised as "Hi Flow" will flow more only at an elevated RPM level. They won't have the needed inner block pressure or better coolant flow at around idle and cruising speeds.

www.flowkoolerwaterpumps.com

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  DILLIGASDAVE on August 10th 2017, 2:28 am

Speedwaypj wrote:..............Initial timing @ 16 (tried 6, 8, 12, 18)..............

How much total timing does it have if the initial timing is set at say 16*?

Is the coolant straight antifreeze, or a 50/50 mix?

If you run the engine at full temp with the radiator cap removed do you see a lot of fast moving water, or is the water not really moving that much?


If you don't really see a lot of moving water do two more tests. One test with the guts removed from a thermostat (or a Moroso disk) and another test with no thermostat at all. [edit] I forgot you had already tried "no thermostat" in the original post.
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Thx - I'll try some suggestions

Post  Speedwaypj on August 10th 2017, 12:55 pm

rmcomprandy - "Do not get misled by the term "Hi Flow" water pump"....Thanks, I didn't realize that; I can get an OEM pump....I'll try anything....have you seen anyone run "Bleed Lines" as I described?

DILLIGASDAVE - thx
yes 50/50 mix.
I haven't ck total timing as I didn't expect it to affect idle... But I will ck it.

It's hard to ck water movement with cap off as it pushes water out within minutes....If I remember at start up (before it pushes out water) it looks lazy...I'll double check that...as rmcomprandy suggests...that "Hi Flow" may be lazy flow at idle.

- Wouldn't the compression test indicate bad head/block/gasket?
- Wouldn't the radiator test (26/28 hrs) indicate bad head/block/gasket?
- I've run it for about an hour several times...if bad head etc, wouldn't it burst the hoses?

I did pressurized system (3 psi) and crank it over with starter and videoed it with Dist cap removed to see if there was any spike in psi associated with firing order - nothing noticeable.

(Left and Right heads are interchangeable...right?...as I bought it apart as basket)

I do plan to perform the Automotive Radiator Cooling System Vacuum Purge before changing out water pump.
Thx again,
PJ

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on August 10th 2017, 5:44 pm

Speedwaypj wrote: rmcomprandy - "Do not get misled by the term "Hi Flow" water pump"....Thanks, I didn't realize that; I can get an OEM pump....I'll try anything....have you seen anyone run "Bleed Lines" as I described
PJ

Of course ... they increase the running temp of the heads and decrease the running temp of the block ... SLIGHTLY.
IF sized correctly, that is good for some power with an aluminum head.
Another benefit is they help purge air from the system produced by boiling coolant so, anything more than a 3/8" I.D. line is usually counterproductive.

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on August 10th 2017, 5:59 pm

Something which bit me 30 some years ago in a race engine is:

Is it overheating or simply gaining pressure very slowly within the cooling system as it runs ...?

After 15 laps of a road race the water in our engine would just exit the cooling system, filling the over flow and the rest went on the track. With no water, the engine would then overheat in a single lap.
After many, MANY rebuilds and gasket changes with all sorts of other stuff performed ... it continued to happen, no matter what.
Changed the block but, used all the same components and the problem went away; only one conclusion was to be had. Combustion cylinder pressure was leaching right through the iron cylinder into the water jacket. Water would never enter the cylinder because 20 pounds in one direction was not the same as 2,000 pounds of pressure in the other direction.

After getting that block vacuum impregnated, there was no more problem with it. It was an expensive race block; a production O.E.M. block would have just been thrown away.

I since have also witnessed this happening in a cylinder head under the exhaust seat.

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Speedwaypj on August 10th 2017, 9:16 pm

thanks rmcomprandy! Very interesting; The engine only had 9k miles on it when I got it in '71; I built it a few years ago and I did clean up the head ports some, but did not see anything suspicious. It all looked real clean valve seats looked good and valve guides looked good.

I've got a new set of intake gaskets to put on so I may try adding the bleed lines...not for flow, just for air pockets.

Before I used the 21# cap, the engine would push out water even (18# cap) before it reached a higher temp ( i.e. 200)....So it acts like it could have an air pocket that expands with the warmup...when using the non-spill funnel, you can see the water start filling it up.....after 10 - 15 minutes, its up about 4 inches. But then the temp keeps creeping up towards 220 - 235 and I use a garage fan to help cool it back down to 210.

..But it could be a small crack/void pushing pressure into water jacket...but the antifreeze is very clean, no oil or flakes or anything.

I did crank it over with the starter but did not see any fluctuation in the pressure gauge...I understand if you have only water, you can use a test kit they sell at "autozone" that will indicate exhaust gasses in the water...not sure how well that works.
But also, I ran it for 70 minutes with the 21# cap and it did not release any fluid ....pressure gauge was around 20#...but it drops when the temp drops using the aux fan...

I've drained the coolant about five times; I even kept the goose neck off till water reached the top of the hole.

Also, the last time I ran it, I put the 180 T-stat to see what would happen.....it seemed to open up in about 1 -2 minutes..is that too fast?...before temp gage was at 180, (gauge is right next to T-Stat)

Just doesn't make sense it wants to push out fluid well before its hot......
Thx again,
PJ

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  pmrphil on August 11th 2017, 3:37 pm

Two things come to mind - this is probably a dumb question, but the radiator cap is at the highest point in the cooling system, right?
The other is I had a brand new (Champion brand) aluminum radiator that was 1/3 plugged at one end of the tubes - fought that for a long time before changing radiators and voila, no more overheating. Could be part of the flow issue.

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I am going to try some suggestions....

Post  Speedwaypj on August 11th 2017, 10:06 pm

pmrphil - thx for the response....the radiator has no cap, I have an in-line cap coming off the goose neck..and it is the highest point.
The radiator is new; and I have taken it off and back flushed.....seems to flow fine.

- I believe I need to get a surge can on it to give the water someplace to go.
- I ordered a "Cooling System Vacuum Purge And Refill Kit" to try to eliminate any air pockets.
- I plan to drill/tap rear of Edelbrock Intake where the rear water passage hit the intake and install petcock to relieve any air that may be trapped there.
- Sounds like an undersize water pump pulley might help.
- need to check total timing.
- I plan to add two front fans (ERA type); currently have flex-fan with shroud.

There is a lot of knowledge on this forum...thank you all.
PJ


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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  DILLIGASDAVE on August 12th 2017, 4:15 am

Also just for the hell of it check to see if top dead center marked on the balancer/pointer matches up with top dead center on #1 cylinder to rule out any misleading initial/total timing numbers.
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Starting to pull intake

Post  Speedwaypj on August 12th 2017, 10:41 am

Good point (checking TDC), but when I built it I verified with Dial Indicator...and I ck it recently assembled.

Sooo would any of these points below hold water(not really a pun).......or can crack/void be so small it only leaks under running high cyl pressure?
- Wouldn't the compression test indicate bad head/block/gasket?
- Wouldn't the radiator test (26/28 hrs) indicate bad head/block/gasket?
- I've run it for about an hour several times...if bad head etc, wouldn't it burst the hoses?

I'm pulling the intake today to drill/tap for petcocks....but i'll wait until I get my "Cooling System Vacuum Purge And Refill Kit" from ebay($35 investment) to add coolant.....
Have any of you used the vacuum purge system? YouTube videos look logical...

thx again all!
PJ

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on August 12th 2017, 12:03 pm

Speedwaypj wrote:Good point (checking TDC), but when I built it I verified with Dial Indicator...and I ck it recently assembled.

Sooo would any of these points below hold water(not really a pun).......or can crack/void be so small it only leaks under running high cyl pressure?
- Wouldn't the compression test indicate bad head/block/gasket?
- Wouldn't the radiator test (26/28 hrs) indicate bad head/block/gasket?
- I've run it for about an hour several times...if bad head etc, wouldn't it burst the hoses?

I'm pulling the intake today to drill/tap for petcocks....but i'll wait until I get my "Cooling System Vacuum Purge And Refill Kit" from ebay($35 investment) to add coolant.....
Have any of you used the vacuum purge system?  YouTube videos look logical...

thx again all!

Why would it burst the hoses ...?
Unless you have a radiator cap with no certain pressure to let that pressure out.
Is your system a completely closed system where pressure can build-up endlessly ...?

Leave the cap loose so, no pressure at all can build-up and then see if you still have the issue.
Coolant will not exit the system if kept under 200 F degrees.
[/quote]

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Speedwaypj on August 12th 2017, 12:30 pm

rmcomprandy - I'm using a 21# cap right now for testing......I've run it for over an hour and nothing pushed out and gauge showed 20#....so IF there were a cracked head/block.. wouldn't it have pushed water out?

Also I can't run w/o cap...... I tried burping the engine with one of those "Non-Spill" funnels and it would push about a quart into the funnel......starting at about 140F....but doesn't burp much air at all just a little after 20 min... It was running for about 45 min like that then it suddenly went fro 210F to 235F in no time and overheated - Blew coolant all over.

So I'm thinking for whatever reason there is air in the system I can't get out.

So I'm pulling the intake today...Drill/Tap.....what should I look for While the intake is off (Dirt/rust)???? I had the engine since '71 (in pieces for 45yrs.....but only put it together recently...I flushed it real good...but maybe it has flaking rust????

(someone did question my head gasket.....I corrected it a week ago and no real diff)
Thx
PJ

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Head Orientation

Post  Speedwaypj on August 12th 2017, 1:41 pm

Head Orientation
I'm sure someone would have mentioned this by now.....but are the heads interchangeable....
i.e. Right head and left head...as I bought it in a basket in '71 so I never knew which head was which.....

The heads are '68 ..... C8VE-E (said to come out of a '69 T-Bird).
Interesting..the cast # C8VE-E are right above the second exhaust port from the right (as you look from the headers)....One side is inverted...the number is upside down....Why????

If I had to change them out...now would be a good time:-)

Thx.
PJ

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on August 12th 2017, 2:19 pm

Speedwaypj wrote:Head Orientation
I'm sure someone would have mentioned this by now.....but are the heads interchangeable....
i.e. Right head and left head...as I bought it in a basket in '71 so I never knew which head was which.....

The heads are '68 ..... C8VE-E  (said to come out of a '69 T-Bird).
Interesting..the cast # C8VE-E are right above the second exhaust port from the right (as you look from the headers)....One side is inverted...the number is upside down....Why????

If I had to change them out...now would be a good time:-)

Thx.
PJ

Heads are interchangeable; either left or right side.

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Speedwaypj on August 12th 2017, 7:32 pm

Thx rmcomprandy .... I feel better!
I got the intake off and drilled/tapped..need to pick up parts and reassemble w/bleed hoses...
Thx
PJ

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Update - Gasket/Bleed Lines

Post  Speedwaypj on August 16th 2017, 12:45 pm

Update:
- I R&R intake gasket with Fel-Pro which block the exhaust cross-over.
- I used the "Cooling System Vacuum Purge And Refill Kit" to try to eliminate any air pockets.....it actually worked pretty well.
- I did add the bleed lines to the intake. I drilled a hole in each intake side matching the (blocked) head water ports. Tapped (1/8 NPT) for small hose fittings and connected them with a "T" and then ran it to the gooseneck.
As I mentioned previously the radiator is new; but I have taken it off again and back flushed.....seems to flow fine.

- Results. Tuesday ( 80+F) ...not much difference.....(I have an in-line radiator cap - no surge tank yet - on order)....I used a "Spill-free-funnel" to be able to monitor it.
- It pushed out about a pint+ or so....it started from about 5 minutes on.
- Also notices very tiny bubbles occasionally....from 15 minutes and even some at 45 minutes.
- I also ran a Strong garage fan on the radiator the whole time....at 40 minutes it was at 195,....when I turned the Fan off for 3 minutes, it went to 210; turned fan back on and it went down to 205.
- When I revved the engine for a minute it would drop a few degrees.

My goal is to keep the mechanical fan, build a better shroud and add two front fans (ERA pusher type). (yes I'm sure the Mark VIII fans would work best).

Next - integrate the expansion/surge tank (and overflow tank);
- Maybe get an undersize water pump pulley.

Again, thanks all!
PJ

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  rmcomprandy on August 16th 2017, 3:20 pm

Just for everyone's information ... SUMMIT sells the FlowKooler water pump for just over a 100 bucks. #BRA-1651

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Thanks all....

Post  Speedwaypj on August 16th 2017, 10:38 pm

It's obvious the electric fan (Mark VIII) seems to be the best option...or one similar in CFM.

However, "The reason that I am running a mechanical fan is to move more air through the engine compartment to try to relieve the inherent heat of a Cobra"........ So many of the articles over the years talk about heat trapped in the engine compartment.....I'm not worry about HP...it'll be fine!

SO, I'll need some type of electrical fan (Mark VIII) to help out the Mechanical Fan...to keep it cool....
Maybe I'll get one shortly just to satisfy myself....before I mount the body..

I was just concerned that the engine seemed to run hot...thought there might be an issue with it (Other than the reversed head gasket)..... I never build a BBF before ...so it seems that they'll run hotter than I thought.

Thanks all, some very good info and thanks for references for parts!
PJ

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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Doug Rahn on August 17th 2017, 1:28 pm

Obviously you have tried everything to alleviated that problem, have you considered trying the Evans Waterless Coolant. I know it's expensive but it does work really good. I did have it in my Ranger until I started having problems with the heater control valve. Not as a result of the Evans stuff but poorly made aftermarket control valves, replaced it 3 times. Plans are to put Evans back in it.
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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  jasonf on August 17th 2017, 4:31 pm

Speedwaypj wrote:It's obvious the electric fan (Mark VIII) seems to be the best option...or one similar in CFM.

However, "The reason that I am running a mechanical fan is to move more air through the engine compartment to try to relieve the inherent heat of a Cobra"........ So many of the articles over the years talk about heat trapped in the engine compartment.....I'm not worry about HP...it'll be fine!

SO, I'll need some type of electrical fan (Mark VIII) to help out the Mechanical Fan...to keep it cool....
Maybe I'll get one shortly just to satisfy myself....before I mount the body..

I was just concerned that the engine seemed to run hot...thought there might be an issue with it (Other than the reversed head gasket)..... I never build a BBF before ...so it seems that they'll run hotter than I thought.

Thanks all, some very good info and thanks for references for parts!
PJ

Well the mark Vlll (and Taurus)  fan is a puller so you can not run it on the other side of the radiator to help the factory fan. If it was me I would not run a factory fan on anything. The Taurus/Mk8 fan puts our 4500 cfm and should be more then enough.

Edit:
Do you have a picture of your setup? I looked at the video and you don't even have a fan on the radiator so I am confused about your whole setup up.

Here is a thread with some fan info.
http://forums.corral.net/forums/electronics-entertainment/846721-custom-electric-fans-setups-mark-viii-tuarus-dual-ramcharger.html
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Re: 429/460 Overheating Issue

Post  Speedwaypj on August 18th 2017, 12:15 am

jasonf the video was prior to me installing the shroud......Thx for the link.

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