Hydraulic roller lifters !

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  BOSS 429 on September 24th 2017, 4:22 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Guess the rest of us are the only ones moving up into the 90's at this point......

True enough. The better hydro rollers (some are better than others) are certainly an option in this century.
However, saying solid roller lifter option is being stuck in the 90's is utter nonsense.
Solid roller lifter design is FAR better than they were in the 90's. There have been many advances in solid roller lifters over the last few years.
One must not think a hydro roller is the only lifter that will survive. It is more about lobe design and using a newer solid roller lifter design that will allow longevity not seen in the 90's. The bushing lifters have advanced, as have the needle designs - and materials used.
Sure running an aggressive lobe profile with a hydro or solid roller cam is not going to last 10's of thousands of miles. However, a well designed lobe profile for an endurance application along with a solid or hydraulic roller can be used with success.

What the hell do I know?

No more nonsense than saying a hyd. roller is a waste of time and money on a 385 series Ford.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a waste of time or money for the guys who sell this stuff to people.


SPEND THE SAME MONEY TO MAKE LESS POWER, YUP, good for the guy selling them to a bbf guy. Yup spending money on a great pair of heads,then run less lift,and less lobe,and less spring presser then a solid,and the et slip shows slower, yup seller wins again

FORD fig it out it, thats why they only made 5 of them

hyd roller have their place, BUT not in a bbf
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  pmrphil on September 24th 2017, 6:26 pm

[quote="SandHillsHillbilly"]Yes solid roller tight lash with mild lobes and reasonable spring pressures would be ideal but. How do you drive the oil pump and distributor without using a bronze gear as a wear item? I would happily run a solid roller cam if I could leave it untouched for 100,00 miles!! Don't mind adjusting valves.
Cast steel cam (Comp -8 series) instead of billet, uses a steel gear, 500 lbs. open pressure max.

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  SandHillsHillbilly on September 24th 2017, 7:25 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Guess the rest of us are the only ones moving up into the 90's at this point......

True enough. The better hydro rollers (some are better than others) are certainly an option in this century.
However, saying solid roller lifter option is being stuck in the 90's is utter nonsense.
Solid roller lifter design is FAR better than they were in the 90's. There have been many advances in solid roller lifters over the last few years.
One must not think a hydro roller is the only lifter that will survive. It is more about lobe design and using a newer solid roller lifter design that will allow longevity not seen in the 90's. The bushing lifters have advanced, as have the needle designs - and materials used.
Sure running an aggressive lobe profile with a hydro or solid roller cam is not going to last 10's of thousands of miles. However, a well designed lobe profile for an endurance application along with a solid or hydraulic roller can be used with success.

What the hell do I know?

No more nonsense than saying a hyd. roller is a waste of time and money on a 385 series Ford.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a waste of time or money for the guys who sell this stuff to people.


SPEND THE SAME MONEY TO MAKE LESS POWER, YUP, good for the guy selling  them to a bbf guy.  Yup spending money on a great pair of heads,then run less lift,and less lobe,and less spring presser then a solid,and the et slip shows slower, yup seller wins again

FORD fig it out it, thats why they only made 5 of them

hyd roller have their place, BUT not in a bbf

I don't think guys that want to run hyd roller expect or need solid roller performance numbers. We don't want big lobes, high lifts, and high spring pressures. We choose great heads because we wanted something more modern than what factory cast iron offered plus more forgiving on pump gas with higher compression and more timing. Not everyone on this forum drag racers time slips some of us want to enjoy driving what we build than it sitting in the shop collecting dust just to drive less than 10 miles on the weekend. A lifetime of pleasure is worth more than a few seconds of glory.
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  dfree383 on September 24th 2017, 8:36 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Guess the rest of us are the only ones moving up into the 90's at this point......

True enough. The better hydro rollers (some are better than others) are certainly an option in this century.
However, saying solid roller lifter option is being stuck in the 90's is utter nonsense.
Solid roller lifter design is FAR better than they were in the 90's. There have been many advances in solid roller lifters over the last few years.
One must not think a hydro roller is the only lifter that will survive. It is more about lobe design and using a newer solid roller lifter design that will allow longevity not seen in the 90's. The bushing lifters have advanced, as have the needle designs - and materials used.
Sure running an aggressive lobe profile with a hydro or solid roller cam is not going to last 10's of thousands of miles. However, a well designed lobe profile for an endurance application along with a solid or hydraulic roller can be used with success.

What the hell do I know?

No more nonsense than saying a hyd. roller is a waste of time and money on a 385 series Ford.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a waste of time or money for the guys who sell this stuff to people.


SPEND THE SAME MONEY TO MAKE LESS POWER, YUP, good for the guy selling  them to a bbf guy.  Yup spending money on a great pair of heads,then run less lift,and less lobe,and less spring presser then a solid,and the et slip shows slower, yup seller wins again

FORD fig it out it, thats why they only made 5 of them

hyd roller have their place, BUT not in a bbf

Old habits die hard..... EFI will never be successful either
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  BOSS 429 on September 24th 2017, 11:31 pm

dfree383 wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Guess the rest of us are the only ones moving up into the 90's at this point......

True enough. The better hydro rollers (some are better than others) are certainly an option in this century.
However, saying solid roller lifter option is being stuck in the 90's is utter nonsense.
Solid roller lifter design is FAR better than they were in the 90's. There have been many advances in solid roller lifters over the last few years.
One must not think a hydro roller is the only lifter that will survive. It is more about lobe design and using a newer solid roller lifter design that will allow longevity not seen in the 90's. The bushing lifters have advanced, as have the needle designs - and materials used.
Sure running an aggressive lobe profile with a hydro or solid roller cam is not going to last 10's of thousands of miles. However, a well designed lobe profile for an endurance application along with a solid or hydraulic roller can be used with success.

What the hell do I know?

No more nonsense than saying a hyd. roller is a waste of time and money on a 385 series Ford.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a waste of time or money for the guys who sell this stuff to people.


SPEND THE SAME MONEY TO MAKE LESS POWER, YUP, good for the guy selling  them to a bbf guy.  Yup spending money on a great pair of heads,then run less lift,and less lobe,and less spring presser then a solid,and the et slip shows slower, yup seller wins again

FORD fig it out it, thats why they only made 5 of them

hyd roller have their place, BUT not in a bbf




Old habits die hard..... EFI will never be successful either
   



well your correct there, best minds in the world cant get that junk better then N.A. carbs.

But you just make comments about the hyd roller,and haven't  showed  why  in a BB FORD they are better  then others?     bounce
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  dfree383 on September 24th 2017, 11:34 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Guess the rest of us are the only ones moving up into the 90's at this point......

True enough. The better hydro rollers (some are better than others) are certainly an option in this century.
However, saying solid roller lifter option is being stuck in the 90's is utter nonsense.
Solid roller lifter design is FAR better than they were in the 90's. There have been many advances in solid roller lifters over the last few years.
One must not think a hydro roller is the only lifter that will survive. It is more about lobe design and using a newer solid roller lifter design that will allow longevity not seen in the 90's. The bushing lifters have advanced, as have the needle designs - and materials used.
Sure running an aggressive lobe profile with a hydro or solid roller cam is not going to last 10's of thousands of miles. However, a well designed lobe profile for an endurance application along with a solid or hydraulic roller can be used with success.

What the hell do I know?

No more nonsense than saying a hyd. roller is a waste of time and money on a 385 series Ford.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a waste of time or money for the guys who sell this stuff to people.


SPEND THE SAME MONEY TO MAKE LESS POWER, YUP, good for the guy selling  them to a bbf guy.  Yup spending money on a great pair of heads,then run less lift,and less lobe,and less spring presser then a solid,and the et slip shows slower, yup seller wins again

FORD fig it out it, thats why they only made 5 of them

hyd roller have their place, BUT not in a bbf




Old habits die hard..... EFI will never be successful either
   



well your correct there, best minds in the world cant get that junk better then N.A. carbs.

But you just make comments about the hyd roller,and haven't  showed  why  in a BB FORD they are better  then others?     bounce

Rich, you do it your way, I'll do it mine, occasionally we will agree sometimes we won't.

I'm done arguing over this
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  BOSS 429 on September 24th 2017, 11:34 pm

SandHillsHillbilly wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Guess the rest of us are the only ones moving up into the 90's at this point......

True enough. The better hydro rollers (some are better than others) are certainly an option in this century.
However, saying solid roller lifter option is being stuck in the 90's is utter nonsense.
Solid roller lifter design is FAR better than they were in the 90's. There have been many advances in solid roller lifters over the last few years.
One must not think a hydro roller is the only lifter that will survive. It is more about lobe design and using a newer solid roller lifter design that will allow longevity not seen in the 90's. The bushing lifters have advanced, as have the needle designs - and materials used.
Sure running an aggressive lobe profile with a hydro or solid roller cam is not going to last 10's of thousands of miles. However, a well designed lobe profile for an endurance application along with a solid or hydraulic roller can be used with success.

What the hell do I know?

No more nonsense than saying a hyd. roller is a waste of time and money on a 385 series Ford.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a waste of time or money for the guys who sell this stuff to people.


SPEND THE SAME MONEY TO MAKE LESS POWER, YUP, good for the guy selling  them to a bbf guy.  Yup spending money on a great pair of heads,then run less lift,and less lobe,and less spring presser then a solid,and the et slip shows slower, yup seller wins again

FORD fig it out it, thats why they only made 5 of them

hyd roller have their place, BUT not in a bbf

I don't think guys that want to run hyd roller expect or need solid roller performance numbers. We don't want big lobes, high lifts, and high spring pressures. We choose great heads because we wanted something more modern than what factory cast iron offered plus more forgiving on pump gas with higher compression and more timing. Not everyone on this forum drag racers time slips some of us want to enjoy driving what we build than it sitting in the shop collecting dust just to drive less than 10 miles on the weekend. A lifetime of pleasure is worth more than a few seconds of glory.



then get a street solid roller grind , you wont be sorry
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  BOSS 429 on September 24th 2017, 11:36 pm

dfree383 wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Guess the rest of us are the only ones moving up into the 90's at this point......

True enough. The better hydro rollers (some are better than others) are certainly an option in this century.
However, saying solid roller lifter option is being stuck in the 90's is utter nonsense.
Solid roller lifter design is FAR better than they were in the 90's. There have been many advances in solid roller lifters over the last few years.
One must not think a hydro roller is the only lifter that will survive. It is more about lobe design and using a newer solid roller lifter design that will allow longevity not seen in the 90's. The bushing lifters have advanced, as have the needle designs - and materials used.
Sure running an aggressive lobe profile with a hydro or solid roller cam is not going to last 10's of thousands of miles. However, a well designed lobe profile for an endurance application along with a solid or hydraulic roller can be used with success.

What the hell do I know?

No more nonsense than saying a hyd. roller is a waste of time and money on a 385 series Ford.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a waste of time or money for the guys who sell this stuff to people.


SPEND THE SAME MONEY TO MAKE LESS POWER, YUP, good for the guy selling  them to a bbf guy.  Yup spending money on a great pair of heads,then run less lift,and less lobe,and less spring presser then a solid,and the et slip shows slower, yup seller wins again

FORD fig it out it, thats why they only made 5 of them

hyd roller have their place, BUT not in a bbf




Old habits die hard..... EFI will never be successful either
   



well your correct there, best minds in the world cant get that junk better then N.A. carbs.

But you just make comments about the hyd roller,and haven't  showed  why  in a BB FORD they are better  then others?     bounce

Rich, you do it your way, I'll do it mine, occasionally we will agree sometimes we won't.

I'm done arguing over this

Listen,Im not arguing with you,YOUR NO DUMMY, I was just trying to get a point across .
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  dfree383 on September 25th 2017, 2:49 am

Theirs no point to get across the hydraulic rollers work and the 1-2 hp you'll find in a carb vs EFI set-up isn't worth what the EFI can offer over a carb, the instant tuning and no distribution issues and worth the 1 hp loss.

Not to mention what the EFI can do to save an engine and make stuff last longer
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  Scott Foxwell on September 25th 2017, 10:16 am

BOSS 429 wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
BOSS 429 wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Guess the rest of us are the only ones moving up into the 90's at this point......

True enough. The better hydro rollers (some are better than others) are certainly an option in this century.
However, saying solid roller lifter option is being stuck in the 90's is utter nonsense.
Solid roller lifter design is FAR better than they were in the 90's. There have been many advances in solid roller lifters over the last few years.
One must not think a hydro roller is the only lifter that will survive. It is more about lobe design and using a newer solid roller lifter design that will allow longevity not seen in the 90's. The bushing lifters have advanced, as have the needle designs - and materials used.
Sure running an aggressive lobe profile with a hydro or solid roller cam is not going to last 10's of thousands of miles. However, a well designed lobe profile for an endurance application along with a solid or hydraulic roller can be used with success.

What the hell do I know?

No more nonsense than saying a hyd. roller is a waste of time and money on a 385 series Ford.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a waste of time or money for the guys who sell this stuff to people.


SPEND THE SAME MONEY TO MAKE LESS POWER, YUP, good for the guy selling  them to a bbf guy.  Yup spending money on a great pair of heads,then run less lift,and less lobe,and less spring presser then a solid,and the et slip shows slower, yup seller wins again

FORD fig it out it, thats why they only made 5 of them

hyd roller have their place, BUT not in a bbf




Old habits die hard..... EFI will never be successful either
   



well your correct there, best minds in the world cant get that junk better then N.A. carbs.

But you just make comments about the hyd roller,and haven't  showed  why  in a BB FORD they are better  then others?     bounce

Rich, you do it your way, I'll do it mine, occasionally we will agree sometimes we won't.

I'm done arguing over this

Listen,Im not arguing with you,YOUR NO DUMMY, I was just trying to get a point across .
You made your point a long time ago. Now, yes, you're just arguing.
Instead of just repeating your OPINION, which is all you're doing, why don't you back it up with some experience or some facts. How many hyd roller BBF's have you built? What is it about the hyd. roller in a BBF that's such a waste of time?

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  68galaxie on September 25th 2017, 1:56 pm

SandHillsHillbilly wrote:
I don't think guys that want to run hyd roller expect or need solid roller performance numbers. We don't want big lobes, high lifts, and high spring pressures. We choose great heads because we wanted something more modern than what factory cast iron offered plus more forgiving on pump gas with higher compression and more timing. Not everyone on this forum drag racers time slips some of us want to enjoy driving what we build than it sitting in the shop collecting dust just to drive less than 10 miles on the weekend. A lifetime of pleasure is worth more than a few seconds of glory.

OK if one does not need or expect solid roller performance numbers - why would you then run the added expense to run a hydraulic roller over a solid flat tappet? A hydraulic roller package is as costly or nearly as costly as a solid roller package.
There have been several flat tappet SCJ builds that have made fantastic numbers. I believe Randy M had and example as well as Lem E awhile back. EDM solid lifter and a custom cam cam make very decent power - and have the longevity you want, and much, much lower parts cost - and use a regular distributor gear for thousands of miles.

Again, I am not trying to sell anything. Use your money as you prefer.

Cheers!!
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  Scott Foxwell on September 25th 2017, 2:48 pm

68galaxie wrote:
SandHillsHillbilly wrote:
I don't think guys that want to run hyd roller expect or need solid roller performance numbers. We don't want big lobes, high lifts, and high spring pressures. We choose great heads because we wanted something more modern than what factory cast iron offered plus more forgiving on pump gas with higher compression and more timing. Not everyone on this forum drag racers time slips some of us want to enjoy driving what we build than it sitting in the shop collecting dust just to drive less than 10 miles on the weekend. A lifetime of pleasure is worth more than a few seconds of glory.

OK if one does not need or expect solid roller performance numbers - why would you then run the added expense to run a hydraulic roller over a solid flat tappet? A hydraulic roller package is as costly or nearly as costly as a solid roller package.
There have been several flat tappet SCJ builds that have made fantastic numbers. I believe Randy M had and example as well as Lem E awhile back. EDM solid lifter and a custom cam cam make very decent power - and have the longevity you want, and much, much lower parts cost - and use a regular distributor gear for thousands of miles.

Again, I am not trying to sell anything. Use your money as you prefer.

Cheers!!
I posted this on the first page. It seems to have been ignored.
Four major reasons to use a hyd roller over a solid in any engine.
1) Roller never loses contact with the lobe. Benefits should be self explanatory.
2) Hydraulic internals act like a shock absorber and absorb a lot of valvetrain harmonics. Again, benefits should be self explanatory.
3) No "jack hammer" effect with stud mount rockers, where lash is taken up at the stud and trunnion.
4) Pushrods are shorter. Shorter pushrods, especially on a tall deck engine, are lighter and stiffer.
Now days we have hyd. lifters that we can run solid roller lobe profiles and spring pressures on. If you have to go to shafts on the BBF to eliminate some sort of geometry issue (which I still don't buy) then so be it but the benefits of the hyd. roller lifter are universal and absolutely not a waste of time or money.
Not to mention there is no risk of a lobe going flat and ruining your engine. The risk of that happening is ten times what it was even 5 years ago as the rest of the industry moves away from flat tappet cams. Power wise, there is no comparison between a roller and flat tappet and don't tell me you can make power with a flat tappet. Of course you can. You can make power all sorts of ways but some ways are just more efficient and a lot more practical than others. If cost is that much of an issue and a roller is absolutely not an option then there is no discussion. If you're building a hot rod engine then it's discretionary money anyway. Drink a few less beers, do a side job, collect cans... it's not rocket science and it's not that difficult.

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  rollercam1 on September 25th 2017, 3:14 pm

I went with a hydraulic roller in my 521 build. This was a pump gas build for my wife that can drive any available day of the week and hit the strip any available weekend. I currently run a .800 solid roller on the street in a SBF with little troubles. Only time will tell if the hydraulic roller has more pro's vs con's. I need less maintenance over more horsepower and as such went with a hydraulic roller.
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  68galaxie on September 25th 2017, 3:33 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
SandHillsHillbilly wrote:
I don't think guys that want to run hyd roller expect or need solid roller performance numbers. We don't want big lobes, high lifts, and high spring pressures. We choose great heads because we wanted something more modern than what factory cast iron offered plus more forgiving on pump gas with higher compression and more timing. Not everyone on this forum drag racers time slips some of us want to enjoy driving what we build than it sitting in the shop collecting dust just to drive less than 10 miles on the weekend. A lifetime of pleasure is worth more than a few seconds of glory.

OK if one does not need or expect solid roller performance numbers - why would you then run the added expense to run a hydraulic roller over a solid flat tappet? A hydraulic roller package is as costly or nearly as costly as a solid roller package.
There have been several flat tappet SCJ builds that have made fantastic numbers. I believe Randy M had and example as well as Lem E awhile back. EDM solid lifter and a custom cam cam make very decent power - and have the longevity you want, and much, much lower parts cost - and use a regular distributor gear for thousands of miles.

Again, I am not trying to sell anything. Use your money as you prefer.

Cheers!!
I posted this on the first page. It seems to have been ignored.
Four major reasons to use a hyd roller over a solid in any engine.
1) Roller never loses contact with the lobe. Benefits should be self explanatory.
2) Hydraulic internals act like a shock absorber and absorb a lot of valvetrain harmonics. Again, benefits should be self explanatory.
3) No "jack hammer" effect with stud mount rockers, where lash is taken up at the stud and trunnion.
4) Pushrods are shorter. Shorter pushrods, especially on a tall deck engine, are lighter and stiffer.
Now days we have hyd. lifters that we can run solid roller lobe profiles and spring pressures on. If you have to go to shafts on the BBF to eliminate some sort of geometry issue (which I still don't buy) then so be it but the benefits of the hyd. roller lifter are universal and absolutely not a waste of time or money.
Not to mention there is no risk of a lobe going flat and ruining your engine. The risk of that happening is ten times what it was even 5 years ago as the rest of the industry moves away from flat tappet cams. Power wise, there is no comparison between a roller and flat tappet and don't tell me you can make power with a flat tappet. Of course you can. You can make power all sorts of ways but some ways are just more efficient and a lot more practical than others. If cost is that much of an issue and a roller is absolutely not an option then there is no discussion. If you're building a hot rod engine then it's discretionary money anyway. Drink a few less beers, do a side job, collect cans... it's not rocket science and it's not that difficult.


Hmm, roller never loses contact with lobe in a hydraulic roller engine - Not true.
If you can't get flat tappet engine build to survive you should chose another line of work.
It certainly isn't rocket science as you have clearly shown.




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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  Straubtech on September 25th 2017, 4:15 pm

BOSS 429 wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
dfree383 wrote:
Guess the rest of us are the only ones moving up into the 90's at this point......

True enough. The better hydro rollers (some are better than others) are certainly an option in this century.
However, saying solid roller lifter option is being stuck in the 90's is utter nonsense.
Solid roller lifter design is FAR better than they were in the 90's. There have been many advances in solid roller lifters over the last few years.
One must not think a hydro roller is the only lifter that will survive. It is more about lobe design and using a newer solid roller lifter design that will allow longevity not seen in the 90's. The bushing lifters have advanced, as have the needle designs - and materials used.
Sure running an aggressive lobe profile with a hydro or solid roller cam is not going to last 10's of thousands of miles. However, a well designed lobe profile for an endurance application along with a solid or hydraulic roller can be used with success.

What the hell do I know?

No more nonsense than saying a hyd. roller is a waste of time and money on a 385 series Ford.

I don't hear this from my customers. The 903 hyd rollers make for a rock solid valvetrain. You have 16 shocks riding on the cam lobes that help reduce valve train harmonics. This lifter due to valving can take some very high spring pressures which opens up the opportunities in lobe profiles.

I ask a customer if part of the hot rod experience is adjusting valves then go solid roller. If it isn't, they go hydraulic roller.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not a waste of time or money for the guys who sell this stuff to people.


SPEND THE SAME MONEY TO MAKE LESS POWER, YUP, good for the guy selling  them to a bbf guy.  Yup spending money on a great pair of heads,then run less lift,and less lobe,and less spring presser then a solid,and the et slip shows slower, yup seller wins again

FORD fig it out it, thats why they only made 5 of them

hyd roller have their place, BUT not in a bbf

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  SandHillsHillbilly on September 25th 2017, 7:36 pm

Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
SandHillsHillbilly wrote:
I don't think guys that want to run hyd roller expect or need solid roller performance numbers. We don't want big lobes, high lifts, and high spring pressures. We choose great heads because we wanted something more modern than what factory cast iron offered plus more forgiving on pump gas with higher compression and more timing. Not everyone on this forum drag racers time slips some of us want to enjoy driving what we build than it sitting in the shop collecting dust just to drive less than 10 miles on the weekend. A lifetime of pleasure is worth more than a few seconds of glory.

OK if one does not need or expect solid roller performance numbers - why would you then run the added expense to run a hydraulic roller over a solid flat tappet? A hydraulic roller package is as costly or nearly as costly as a solid roller package.
There have been several flat tappet SCJ builds that have made fantastic numbers. I believe Randy M had and example as well as Lem E awhile back. EDM solid lifter and a custom cam cam make very decent power - and have the longevity you want, and much, much lower parts cost - and use a regular distributor gear for thousands of miles.

Again, I am not trying to sell anything. Use your money as you prefer.

Cheers!!
I posted this on the first page. It seems to have been ignored.
Four major reasons to use a hyd roller over a solid in any engine.
1) Roller never loses contact with the lobe. Benefits should be self explanatory.
2) Hydraulic internals act like a shock absorber and absorb a lot of valvetrain harmonics. Again, benefits should be self explanatory.
3) No "jack hammer" effect with stud mount rockers, where lash is taken up at the stud and trunnion.
4) Pushrods are shorter. Shorter pushrods, especially on a tall deck engine, are lighter and stiffer.
Now days we have hyd. lifters that we can run solid roller lobe profiles and spring pressures on. If you have to go to shafts on the BBF to eliminate some sort of geometry issue (which I still don't buy) then so be it but the benefits of the hyd. roller lifter are universal and absolutely not a waste of time or money.
Not to mention there is no risk of a lobe going flat and ruining your engine. The risk of that happening is ten times what it was even 5 years ago as the rest of the industry moves away from flat tappet cams. Power wise, there is no comparison between a roller and flat tappet and don't tell me you can make power with a flat tappet. Of course you can. You can make power all sorts of ways but some ways are just more efficient and a lot more practical than others. If cost is that much of an issue and a roller is absolutely not an option then there is no discussion. If you're building a hot rod engine then it's discretionary money anyway. Drink a few less beers, do a side job, collect cans... it's not rocket science and it's not that difficult.

Why no mention of less parasitic losses between flat tappets (sliding friction) vs roller came both solid and hyd.?

To me the hyd roller fills the gap between flat solid and roller solid. Granted a tame cast tight lash solid roller with tame lobes with less aggressive ramps and lifts 650 and under will equal the performance a hyd roller. BUT solid roller will still need a more agressive spring and additional mantence checking valve lash.
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  rmcomprandy on September 26th 2017, 9:17 am

SandHillsHillbilly wrote:

Why no mention of less parasitic losses between flat tappets (sliding friction) vs roller came both solid and hyd.?


Because there has been several hours, days even months of testing by the O.E.M. car companies and there is no measurable difference in friction losses except at start-up and times of little oil presence. It is all out there in the world for anybody to read in a bunch of S.A.E. reports.
The tested and conclusive difference is that flat tappets need certain anti-wear elements which are harmful to the life of catalitic converters ... roller tappets and camshafts don't need those.

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  Scott Foxwell on September 26th 2017, 10:54 am

68galaxie wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
SandHillsHillbilly wrote:
I don't think guys that want to run hyd roller expect or need solid roller performance numbers. We don't want big lobes, high lifts, and high spring pressures. We choose great heads because we wanted something more modern than what factory cast iron offered plus more forgiving on pump gas with higher compression and more timing. Not everyone on this forum drag racers time slips some of us want to enjoy driving what we build than it sitting in the shop collecting dust just to drive less than 10 miles on the weekend. A lifetime of pleasure is worth more than a few seconds of glory.

OK if one does not need or expect solid roller performance numbers - why would you then run the added expense to run a hydraulic roller over a solid flat tappet? A hydraulic roller package is as costly or nearly as costly as a solid roller package.
There have been several flat tappet SCJ builds that have made fantastic numbers. I believe Randy M had and example as well as Lem E awhile back. EDM solid lifter and a custom cam cam make very decent power - and have the longevity you want, and much, much lower parts cost - and use a regular distributor gear for thousands of miles.

Again, I am not trying to sell anything. Use your money as you prefer.

Cheers!!
I posted this on the first page. It seems to have been ignored.
Four major reasons to use a hyd roller over a solid in any engine.
1) Roller never loses contact with the lobe. Benefits should be self explanatory.
2) Hydraulic internals act like a shock absorber and absorb a lot of valvetrain harmonics. Again, benefits should be self explanatory.
3) No "jack hammer" effect with stud mount rockers, where lash is taken up at the stud and trunnion.
4) Pushrods are shorter. Shorter pushrods, especially on a tall deck engine, are lighter and stiffer.
Now days we have hyd. lifters that we can run solid roller lobe profiles and spring pressures on. If you have to go to shafts on the BBF to eliminate some sort of geometry issue (which I still don't buy) then so be it but the benefits of the hyd. roller lifter are universal and absolutely not a waste of time or money.
Not to mention there is no risk of a lobe going flat and ruining your engine. The risk of that happening is ten times what it was even 5 years ago as the rest of the industry moves away from flat tappet cams. Power wise, there is no comparison between a roller and flat tappet and don't tell me you can make power with a flat tappet. Of course you can. You can make power all sorts of ways but some ways are just more efficient and a lot more practical than others. If cost is that much of an issue and a roller is absolutely not an option then there is no discussion. If you're building a hot rod engine then it's discretionary money anyway. Drink a few less beers, do a side job, collect cans... it's not rocket science and it's not that difficult.


Hmm, roller never loses contact with lobe in a hydraulic roller engine - Not true.
If you can't get flat tappet engine build to survive you should chose another line of work.
It certainly isn't rocket science as you have clearly shown.




My (or anyone else's) "ability" has nothing to do with getting a flat tappet cam to work. Do some research beyond 1980 and see what the failure rates of flat tappets are since the OEM's stopped using them. Or, keep your head in the sand. Flat tappets these days that will last are going to be darn near as expensive as a hyd roller.
And where/when does the roller lose contact with the lobe with a hyd. roller unless, of course, you're lofting the lifter and floating the valves? It certainly doesn't lose contact like a solid with lash. WAY less wear and tear on the axles, bearings, cam lobes, rocker arms, valve tips...shall I go on?

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  Scott Foxwell on September 26th 2017, 10:58 am

SandHillsHillbilly wrote:
Scott Foxwell wrote:
68galaxie wrote:
SandHillsHillbilly wrote:
I don't think guys that want to run hyd roller expect or need solid roller performance numbers. We don't want big lobes, high lifts, and high spring pressures. We choose great heads because we wanted something more modern than what factory cast iron offered plus more forgiving on pump gas with higher compression and more timing. Not everyone on this forum drag racers time slips some of us want to enjoy driving what we build than it sitting in the shop collecting dust just to drive less than 10 miles on the weekend. A lifetime of pleasure is worth more than a few seconds of glory.

OK if one does not need or expect solid roller performance numbers - why would you then run the added expense to run a hydraulic roller over a solid flat tappet? A hydraulic roller package is as costly or nearly as costly as a solid roller package.
There have been several flat tappet SCJ builds that have made fantastic numbers. I believe Randy M had and example as well as Lem E awhile back. EDM solid lifter and a custom cam cam make very decent power - and have the longevity you want, and much, much lower parts cost - and use a regular distributor gear for thousands of miles.

Again, I am not trying to sell anything. Use your money as you prefer.

Cheers!!
I posted this on the first page. It seems to have been ignored.
Four major reasons to use a hyd roller over a solid in any engine.
1) Roller never loses contact with the lobe. Benefits should be self explanatory.
2) Hydraulic internals act like a shock absorber and absorb a lot of valvetrain harmonics. Again, benefits should be self explanatory.
3) No "jack hammer" effect with stud mount rockers, where lash is taken up at the stud and trunnion.
4) Pushrods are shorter. Shorter pushrods, especially on a tall deck engine, are lighter and stiffer.
Now days we have hyd. lifters that we can run solid roller lobe profiles and spring pressures on. If you have to go to shafts on the BBF to eliminate some sort of geometry issue (which I still don't buy) then so be it but the benefits of the hyd. roller lifter are universal and absolutely not a waste of time or money.
Not to mention there is no risk of a lobe going flat and ruining your engine. The risk of that happening is ten times what it was even 5 years ago as the rest of the industry moves away from flat tappet cams. Power wise, there is no comparison between a roller and flat tappet and don't tell me you can make power with a flat tappet. Of course you can. You can make power all sorts of ways but some ways are just more efficient and a lot more practical than others. If cost is that much of an issue and a roller is absolutely not an option then there is no discussion. If you're building a hot rod engine then it's discretionary money anyway. Drink a few less beers, do a side job, collect cans... it's not rocket science and it's not that difficult.

Why no mention of less parasitic losses between flat tappets (sliding friction) vs roller came both solid and hyd.?

To me the hyd roller fills the gap between flat solid and roller solid. Granted a tame cast tight lash solid roller with tame lobes with less aggressive ramps and lifts 650 and under will equal the performance a hyd roller. BUT solid roller will still need a more agressive spring and additional mantence checking valve lash.
Randy answered that one. There really is no frictional difference that amounts to anything significant. The biggest benefit of the roller is what they can do with the cam lobe and again, like Randy said, the emissions factor of the oil. That's a biggy.

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  SandHillsHillbilly on September 26th 2017, 11:28 am

Maybe a seat of the pants feeling but for identical motors, but one with hyd flat and the other with hyd roller. All factors being the same duration, lift, valve events. I know this doesn't optimize the hyd roller abilities. It seems the engine acceleration rate is greater with hyd roller vs the hyd flat.
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  rollercam1 on September 26th 2017, 12:06 pm

I wanted increased opening and closing rates, with the low maintenance. Maybe, I am in a small niche area where, cost wasn't an issue and I wanted as much performance while staying as maintenance free as I could. BBF's in early F-100 are not enjoyable in the slightest to adjust valves on. Just taking the drivers side valve cover off often requires removal of the brake booster and master cylinder. It made sense to me to go to a hydraulic roller as I have had great results in my SBF builds. This is my 3rd BBF build and the first with a hydraulic roller, Time will tell and if I go to a solid roller in the future, I can give feedback.
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  rmcomprandy on September 26th 2017, 11:08 pm

rollercam1 wrote:I wanted increased opening and closing rates, with the low maintenance. Maybe, I am in a small niche area where, cost wasn't an issue and I wanted as much performance while staying as maintenance free as I could. BBF's in early F-100 are not enjoyable in the slightest to adjust valves on. Just taking the drivers side valve cover off often requires removal of the brake booster and master cylinder. It made sense to me to go to a hydraulic roller as I have had great results in my SBF builds. This is my 3rd BBF build and the first with a hydraulic roller, Time will tell and if I go to a solid roller in the future, I can give feedback.

A flat tappet can attain much greater acceleration than a roller. The biggest advantage to a roller cam & lifter is that it can attain more LIFT with a greater velocity. With sharing compatible lifts, there is no real power advantage to a roller.

Again, the biggest advantage with a roller is that you can get more lift for a given duration than a flat tappet but, you need much greater spring force to control it so, it does have certain running trade-offs.

There are places in their own realm where both will have an advantage and therefore are better for THAT application.


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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  gt350hr on October 2nd 2017, 4:09 pm

Chris ( Straub)
The "issue" I read a few pages back seemed to be the raised pushrod seat in the hyd roller increasing the pushrod angularity though the guide plate and offsetting the roller tip at the valve. This is supposed to side load the rocker and the guide causing premature failure of both. This could be solved with a reduced base circle cam to allow a "standard length" pushrod to be used. ( at least as I see it)
It is my understanding the Ford test engines used a 5/16 "production" pushrod which at it's length has the integrity if a wet noodle. 5/16ths pushrods "were" 90% of the "valve train geometry" issues the Boss 302 and 351C engines had/have. A 3/8ths heavy wall ( or bigger) nearly eliminates the issue. Worse on the 429-460 and 351M-400 engines.

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  SandHillsHillbilly on October 2nd 2017, 6:10 pm

gt350hr wrote:   Chris ( Straub)
     The "issue" I read a few pages back seemed to be the raised pushrod seat in the hyd roller  increasing the pushrod angularity though the guide plate and offsetting the roller tip at the valve. This is supposed to side load the rocker and the guide causing premature failure of both. This could be solved with a reduced base circle cam to allow a "standard length" pushrod to be used. ( at least as I see it)
     It is my understanding the Ford test engines used a 5/16 "production" pushrod which at it's length has the integrity if a wet noodle. 5/16ths pushrods "were" 90% of the "valve train geometry" issues the Boss 302 and 351C engines had/have.  A 3/8ths  heavy wall ( or bigger) nearly eliminates the issue. Worse on the 429-460 and 351M-400 engines.

I don' know. Is it possible to reduce the base circle 0.500"?
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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters !

Post  Lem Evans on October 2nd 2017, 6:16 pm

"A flat tappet can attain much greater acceleration than a roller. The biggest advantage to a roller cam & lifter is that it can attain more LIFT with a greater velocity. With sharing compatible lifts, there is no real power advantage to a roller.".....quoting Randy.

And, that's much of the reason that the FRPP SCJA package [flat tappet springs] is such a value. Does not need big lift cam to haul ass.

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