Oiling modifications... and how much power?

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Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 8th 2017, 5:34 pm

Hey everyone! First post here. So for the first time in my hot rod life I'm going to build a BBF. I've got an 87 Fox notch back and I was going to put a BBC in it. After a lot of heckling from friends, and actually doing some research, I'm honestly kinda irritated that I never looked into the 385 series before. Taller deck, bigger bore... its ready to be built big from the factory! I've decided on the top end. It'll be Trick Flow A460's with the TF A460 single plane, topped with probably an 1150 dominator type carb. Valvetrain will be full roller, bottom end will be Lunati crank and rods... not sure which pistons I'll use yet though. I want to keep it about 10-10.5:1 compression to keep it pump gas friendly because I plan on driving it on the street... a lot. I know with this combo of parts it'll easily be over 800 hp and put me in mid to low 9's on motor, which is where I want to be. I sold my BBC and picked up an unmolested 460 from a 77 Lincoln (I think). It's a D1VE block with D3VE heads. I haven't pulled the pan yet, but I anticipate finding 2 bolt mains. With all of that laid out there, I have some questions.

1. In regard to the two bolt mains, just how strong are they? I don't want to fill the block because I plan on a bunch of street driving. I will do splayed 4 bolts if I need to, but if it's not necessary then I won't bother.

2. I've seen/read about a few oiling mods to do, which is nothing more than chamfering your passages in the oil filter mount, oil pump mount, and main saddles. I've also seen how to modify so you have an oil jet spraying on your distributor gear. One thing that someone told me, but I haven't heard anyone else mention, is to connect the passage right above where the mechanical fuel pump would mount to the passage at the rear of the block (like where you'd find the distributor on a Chevy). I'm not opposed to doing that, but the person who suggested it just said "do it" without giving any reason why. I was hoping maybe some of you could shine some light on this for me.

Well, I guess that's pretty good for a first post. Thanks in advance for any replies.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  rmcomprandy on October 8th 2017, 5:44 pm

IF I was in your situation ... I would do a lot of reading using the SEARCH function about all this.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 8th 2017, 6:05 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:IF I was in your situation ... I would do a lot of reading using the SEARCH function about all this.

Wow! That's some profound advice. It's almost as if I'd never used a forum before. When so many people suggested I come here because the people are so nice, helpful, and knowledgeable about the 385 series, I had no idea they meant I'd get such great input from my very first reply. I never would've thought to search. Thanks a lot.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  rmcomprandy on October 8th 2017, 6:26 pm

nickpohlaandp wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:IF I was in your situation ... I would do a lot of reading using the SEARCH function about all this.

Wow! That's some profound advice. It's almost as if I'd never used a forum before. When so many people suggested I come here because the people are so nice, helpful, and knowledgeable about the 385 series, I had no idea they meant I'd get such great input from my very first reply. I never would've thought to search. Thanks a lot.

I was trying to be helpful because what you asked would probably require pages to write an educated response; maybe someone here who knows, might actually do that.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 8th 2017, 7:06 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:I was trying to be helpful because what you asked would probably require pages to write an educated response; maybe someone here who knows, might actually do that.

If that was your extent of help then I apologize for the overly cynical reply. I'm new to this forum, I'm not new to forums in general.

In regard to your comment about an educated response, I was thinking about that, and it seems to me that the lack of literature has got to be one of the top reasons why people gravitate to the typical GM builds. If you look for books on a BBC your cup will runeth over. Any searching I've done for BBF books has turned up little more than general rebuild books. I know there's quite a few guys out there with the knowledge to write one, I just wish someone would do it.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  DanH on October 8th 2017, 7:33 pm

Search the proven builds.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 8th 2017, 7:35 pm

DanH wrote:Search the proven builds.

Again, thanks for your insight.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Lem Evans on October 8th 2017, 7:57 pm

Don't fill the block and don't buy one of those main girdle things.

You gonna stroke this engine?

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 8th 2017, 8:44 pm

Lem Evans wrote:Don't fill the block and don't buy one of those main girdle things.

You gonna stroke this engine?  

Yes, my intention is to go 0.060 over and use a 4.300 Lunati crank.

As far as block fill, I had no intention of doing that. This is going to see mostly street use.

Two things. First, thank you for actually engaging in a conversation, and second, I've seen the "forget about a girdle" comment quite a few times. Other than it being unnecessary, is there any reason why people keep saying this? I'm guessing a windage tray and possibly a vacuum pump on the crankcase are still going to be "do's" though, right?

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Bosskk1786 on October 8th 2017, 9:02 pm

Welcome to the site!..... Help the guys out with your build. What weight and suspension set up are you gonna run?... Mostly street or mostly strip?.... Gear ratio and tire size?.... How many miles a year do you think you'll put on. For that power level do you really need a460 heads?... P51's or Scj heads might give you a better selection of intake manifold. Solid roller cam I assume?.... The more info you give these guys the more they can help you..... And thanks for leaving the dark side! Lol

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 8th 2017, 9:42 pm

Bosskk1786 wrote:Welcome to the site!.....  Help the guys out with your build. What weight and suspension set up are you gonna run?... Mostly street or mostly strip?.... Gear ratio and tire size?.... How many miles a year do you think you'll put on. For that power level do you really need a460 heads?... P51's or Scj heads might give you a better selection of intake manifold. Solid roller cam I assume?.... The more info you give these guys the more they can help you..... And thanks for leaving the dark side! Lol

Here's what I know for sure that will be included in my build:

Roller valvetrain. Debating on solid or low travel hydraulic
TH400 trans with JW bellhousing (already have it)
Stock style suspension with adjustable control arms
Coil overs front and rear
Tubular K member
Engine mounted with motor plates and longitudinal stabilizers to the block
Chromoly front end (https://rock-solid-motorsports.com/products/foxbody-tubular-front-end)
Mini tub by Nick (that's me :-) )
8.8 rear, unsure of the gearing... maybe 3.55's
Guessing empty weight will be at or just below 3k
10 point cage
Two seats
Dash
Necessary gauges
All lights functional
License plate out back for ballast

I plan to drive this primarily on the street. There's a drag strip about an hour away from me and I'll go there on Friday nights when I can make it. My goal is to have an obnoxious car that'll be fine on the street and run in the 9's on motor. When I say "be fine on the street" I mean I want to go on the Hot Rod Power Tour and have no reservations about it.

I figure the A460's because I know they'll make the power I want right out of the box. I've worked with the SCJ heads on a 70 Torino 429 Cobra that has been in my shop for about a month now. They're nice heads, but I can see room for improvement. The P51's definitely will make the power (http://mooregoodink.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/CC-Aug-KaaseBOSS.pdf), but I've read mixed reviews on forums and FB groups. For 521 inches, the A460's seem to be the one head that everyone agrees will deliver without a doubt.

Hopefully that's enough to get you started. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask. Thanks.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Dave De on October 8th 2017, 9:47 pm

Bosskk1786 wrote:Welcome to the site!.....  Help the guys out with your build. What weight and suspension set up are you gonna run?... Mostly street or mostly strip?.... Gear ratio and tire size?.... How many miles a year do you think you'll put on. For that power level do you really need a460 heads?... P51's or Scj heads might give you a better selection of intake manifold. Solid roller cam I assume?.... The more info you give these guys the more they can help you..... And thanks for leaving the dark side! Lol

I agree and to reinforce that you can go 521 to 547 with SCJ's or P-51's and run 9.50's in Fox trim.
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Bosskk1786 on October 8th 2017, 10:52 pm

I would say to hit your mark you'll need a solid roller. If you look in the proven build section g code built a 528 a headed pump gas build made 843hp and 700 ft lbs. Cam was in the 275@.050 range and mid .700 lift. If you talk with any of the builders on here they can spec you the cam to get the job done. Heck put a 100hp shot on it and try for 8's!

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 8th 2017, 11:27 pm

Bosskk1786 wrote:...Heck put a 100hp shot on it and try for 8's!

Funny you mention that. I'm planning on putting a bottle on it. Not sure how much use it'll get, but it'll have one. My cage will only be an 8.50 cert, so I'm not trying to go crazy. I know a solid roller would be optimal for power, but the short travel hydraulic lifters would certainly be more street friendly. It will be a "race car" but it'll see the majority of its time on the street, not a race track

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Bosskk1786 on October 8th 2017, 11:39 pm

Hopefully some of the other guys chime in soon. I've always ran solid lifters. Flat tappet and roller in my engines. From what I've read hydraulic roller lifters and bbf aren't the optimum match for longevity. Short pushrods and valve angles causes guide wear.... If you look on this page there is a long/slightly heated discussion on hydraulic roller lifters

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  dfree383 on October 9th 2017, 7:00 am

A460 heads are fantastic, but if you going for pump gas and 99% street driving in a fox I'd consider P-51's,TFS streets ect.

A lot more velocity = better with a tighter convertor, street friendly gearing and in a Fox much easier to work on.
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 8:15 am

Bosskk1786 wrote:Hopefully some of the other guys chime in soon. I've always ran solid lifters. Flat tappet and roller in my engines. From what I've read hydraulic roller lifters and bbf aren't the optimum match for longevity. Short pushrods and valve angles causes guide wear.... If you look on this page there is a long/slightly heated discussion on hydraulic roller lifters

LOL, I'll definitely look for that. It's always amusing to watch a pissing match in process. I've run solid roller on the street before and not had any problems, but I wasn't lifting much more than 0.600 on a BBC (weak, I know). That engine ran great an I never had any issues with it. Then again, I never tried to drive that car on a cross country trip.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  5pointslow on October 9th 2017, 9:18 am

all this street driving hell if it was me you could get a crate coyote engine ( efi) from ford
buy a procharger , tune it light weight fox prob go in 9s and drive it anywere and knock down 20 mpg .

im not an engine builder but i would imagine valve springs and seat pressures with a big solid roller cam may play an issue with a lot of street driving

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  rmcomprandy on October 9th 2017, 9:33 am

Personally ... for a long lived, low maintenance, high driven mileage combination, I would use a suitable solid flat tappet camshaft. The power output can be near the same with a bit less torque. It is not necessarily the roller valve train itself but, the required valve spring pressures which become the street running issue.

A460 heads using the old Ford Motorsport intake manifold is a really good street/strip performing combination with a 521 inch engine.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Doug Rahn on October 9th 2017, 9:38 am

Randy and 5pointslow beat me to it and I am by no means an expert, but I do run A460's on my build. But, valve spring maintenance could be a big and expensive issue on a street driven "A" build.
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  5pointslow on October 9th 2017, 10:04 am

my 472 i just off dyno

made 649 Hp with a solid lifter cam (non roller)
out of the box eddy heads
12.1 compression
1080 davinchi carb on vp113

as example this is that combo and i think all out at 3000lbs im figuaring 9.70-9.80s , my build and goal is to use in 10.00 index and 10.50 index.

now im going to turn this around towards what you are looking for
if this had 10.5-1 and say scj heads with back cut valves or p51 heads
stroker 521-557 with a custom ground lifter cam

would make more power than i did and you could run deep into the 9s and run on street with less valve train issues like randy mentioned.
Im no engine builder but i do realize somtimes less is more and im not sure your budget but by the time you get all the "a" heads and stuff to go along with it , lunati crank and rods you mentioned you will have 15k i bet tied up in it .
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 10:29 am

I understand what you are all saying about valvespring maintenance. When you get up to 800 lbs over the nose at full lift, you're putting some stress on parts. This is one of the reasons I'm considering going with a hydraulic roller vs a solid roller. With the solid roller I'd be looking at something like 500-550 at max lift, which is a lot more reasonable, not to mention the hydraulic lifters would be a lot more friendly on the street. To give the valvesprings the best chance at survival I was planning on running COMP's new conical valve springs. They have the advantages of beehive and then some. I'm not expecting to get 100k worry free miles out of this engine, but I also don't want to be changing lifters every time I do an oil change.

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 10:35 am

5pointslow wrote:... you will have 15k i bet tied up in it.

You're probably on the money with that guess. That's the cost of overbuilding and detuning for reliability though.

I used to do the same thing with airplane engines. I built all aluminum turbocharged V8 conversions for Experimental aircraft. In parts alone there was probably close to $25-30k, but when I would put these things on the dyno, and later on the airplanes, I'd only run them between 425 and 510 hp (depending on the combo, I had three different displacements that I built). That's barely breaking a sweat for one of these engines, but they'd live happily making 400 hp at cruise for hours on end. It's one thing to do it for 10 seconds... it's a whole other animal to get an engine to make that for 4-5 hours, stop, fuel up, and do it again, all without ever breaking anything.


Last edited by nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  Curt on October 9th 2017, 10:39 am

nickpohlaandp wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:IF I was in your situation ... I would do a lot of reading using the SEARCH function about all this.

Wow! That's some profound advice. It's almost as if I'd never used a forum before. When so many people suggested I come here because the people are so nice, helpful, and knowledgeable about the 385 series, I had no idea they meant I'd get such great input from my very first reply. I never would've thought to search. Thanks a lot.

If this site and its members are the rose, Randy is definitely our thorn. He's a pretty smart guy, but vertically challenged and takes it out on anyone who dares to ask a question that might have been asked here before (on this site or anywhere else in the universe). If you can ignore him for the most part, you'll enjoy to camaraderie of Nick's site and his members. You'll find that the most knowledge will come from folks with the last name of Evans.

Welcome
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Re: Oiling modifications... and how much power?

Post  nickpohlaandp on October 9th 2017, 10:41 am

Curt wrote:If this site and its members are the rose, Randy is definitely our thorn. He's a pretty smart guy, but vertically challenged and takes it out on anyone who dares to ask a question that might have been asked here before (on this site or anywhere else in the universe). If you can ignore him for the most part, you'll enjoy to camaraderie of Nick's site and his members.  You'll find that the most knowledge will come from folks with the last name of Evans.

Welcome

Good to know. Thanks for the tip Very Happy

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