Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb on Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:13 am

(we are ppl using for posting photos now?)

Getting hot in low speed / traffic, at idle will get hot and not recover

Months I wrote about overheating issues and after pulling the motor down did I find the clowns put both copper head gaskets on backwards so water jackets to rear of the heads had been blocked, plus a number of other things. New rebuild new alot of other parts like waterpump, intake , cam , pistons, rods........ and it getting but not like before with high pressure build-up in the cooling system..

Now I have been on the forums and got the point now I should ask for more adivce - I think its timing but not sure or how do I know apart from advancing it what I should be running...?!

I cannot put on a blade fan and shroud, its not possible without extensive modification to the car to move the front end forwards cutting away the car, grill etc etc. The car never came from the factory with a 460 but a 351Cleveland. The water pump shaft alone is about 2-3 inches away from the rad. Its tight so had to make sure I got the best high cfm low profile fans fitted SPAL and RAD.

Timing, at idle around 900rpm its around 16 deg at 1500rpm 25 deg, at 2000 30deg, 2500 36deg.

On a cool evening , I start the car up, slow drive at around 2000rpm for about 3 min, pull over and already sitting at 201degF. Idle for about 3 min and the electric fans kick in and its just sitting at 201, the fans are 1300cfm each its not getting cooler or hotter.

I drive off and sit on about 50mph, for 4 min and tmp drops to around 192degf. Soon as I slow down, stop at lights and drive slowly below 20mph, its getting back to 201deg. I begin to go up a few streets, slow driving a few very small hits over the next 5 min temp is climbing to 206deg.

About 27 min into driving around, at night no traffic and its now on around 225deg. I then slow reverse up the driveway and its slight increase 228deg, does not look like it would recover. I kill the engine.

It hot weather 95deg, its just get hot and stays hot. driving at 50mph does bring it down but soon as you slow up and stop and start etc its heading straight to 220+. And I am not driving around like a right led foot clown, more like a granny on her last pension payment just waiting to breakdown.


Fuel afr around 13.6 - 13.8 at idle (the fitech and the innovate AFR gauge both matching)

Block was hot-tanked - looks ok from previous flushes
Running Water Wetter with Water
3Row Alloy rad with 2 x SPAL 12inch 1300CFM each Not a cheap ebay rad
Small hose (bypass) between pump and intake, now blocked off
163 DegF High Flow Thermostat with around 8x 3mm holes drilled around
Made sure the heater hose tap is off positon to stop circulation (saw someone said can affect cooling)
few drives to get all air out of system, topped rad and the overflow now looks to be working as expected, low level during cool, high during HOT.

460 .40thou
New Water Pump and all matching pulleys from CVF Racing.
Comp is around 11.9 static, and 9.57dyn with cam details
Flat Top - 0 Deck
Comp Cam - 34-247-4 HYD - @.50 230 / 236 Lift.562 / 565
EddyBrock Dual plane RPM
Cast heads with some porting (previous owner)

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Post  aquartlow on Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:47 am

The short answer is not enough cooling fan CFM. I have found you need at least 4000 cfm to reliably cool a typical BBF(with running A/C in Florida anyhow), that much CR will need a bit more. In your post you explain that at cruise speeds the temp goes down(indicates radiator has enough capacity to cool your combo), but at idle speeds the temps rise, this indicates not enough cooling fan CFM/flow.
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Post  rmcomprandy on Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:47 am

Personally, first ... turning the water pump backwards on a 460 ford, (like a CVF Racing serpentine kit does), is not a very efficient way to get water through the block. The involute in the cover face and pump is trying to work backwards.
I think it is simply not enough water flowing through or water flow pressure within the block.

Most high flow / high efficiency water pumps are merely better at higher RPM and are worse than stock at idle or low RPM.

You could turn your pump faster or get a water pump which is more efficient at LOW RPM like those from FlowKooler.
Still, turning it in reverse is not a good idea for water flow unless the front cover and water pump are manufactured to work in reverse rotation.

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Post  jasonf on Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:34 am

rmcomprandy wrote:Personally, first ... turning the water pump backwards on a 460 ford, (like a CVF Racing serpentine kit does), is not a very efficient way to get water through the block. The involute in the cover face and pump is trying to work backwards.
I think it is simply not enough water flowing through or water flow pressure within the block.

Most high flow / high efficiency water pumps are merely better at higher RPM and are worse than stock at idle or low RPM.

You could turn your pump faster or get a water pump which is more efficient at LOW RPM like those from FlowKooler.
Still, turning it in reverse is not a good idea for water flow unless the front cover and water pump are manufactured to work in reverse rotation.

They have a couple kits but non of them turn the pump backwards Randy. One setup uses dual idler pulleys to hold contact on the wp pulley and the other kits uses a dual belt setup like the OEM.

One thing that strikes me odd is the size of the crank pulley in one kit vs the other kit. The complete kit (2nd pic) comes with a high flow water pump but they don't mention the brand.

https://www.cvfracing.com/ford-big-block-performance-accessories-s/225.htmRunning 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ? B-460-10
Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ? 460_cv10
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Post  bigblockfordfxstb on Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:43 pm

Hi,

I should have mentioned that I went for the V-BELT (PS/AC) kit AC not connected nor is its rad mounted. The serp kit I was conserned with the extra depth the serp kit would take. And leave me less room for electric fans as already tight. Again reason i went for a aftermarket kit wasI did have the factory crank and wp pulley orignally on the the factory large crank pulley was so close to the front cross member I was unable to get the belt in or out without lowering the gearbox cross member down to pivot the front of the motor up.

I belive the crank pulley is now 5.7inch, need to confirm the water pump pulley size. But i did email them the other week to ask about the waterpump and pulleys are matched well and not only going to work at high rpm for racing style , and support said all good. The pumps rotor fin thing had the backside of it like plated flat that i understand helps with flow.

And yes it came with a New Backing plate and I made sure it was all correct know its one of the 1st questions people ask...

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb on Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:58 pm

Rhe MSD is locked out and timing control is now done with the Fitech EFI controlling the Msd6al when to fire. Etc

After the rebuild I had my Holley that ran real rich and same issues with idle. So thought instead of playing it anymore i out the fitech on that was sitting in the box.

Unless my base timing is 2 high to begin with...?
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Post  BigBlockRanger on Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:41 pm

I also think it's not enough fan.

I have used a Chevy HHR electric fan for years. They are cheap, thin and move a lot of air.

Also, retarded timing will make it get hot not advanced.

I had cooling probs with my old 545 when I first put it in the Mustang. I went to an electric water pump, locked out the timing (34 deg all the time) and it suddenly became super consistent. Best move I ever made.
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Post  rmcomprandy on Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:34 pm

jasonf wrote:

They have a couple kits but non of them turn the pump backwards Randy. One setup uses dual idler pulleys to hold contact on the wp pulley and the other kits uses a dual belt setup like the OEM.

One thing that strikes me odd is the size of the crank pulley in one kit vs the other kit. The complete kit (2nd pic) comes with a high flow water pump but they don't mention the brand.

I didn't realize that their serpentine systems had a dual-idler so, the water pump would turn in the correct forward rotation; unlike the small block type systems out there in the marketplace.

Again, most "HI-Flow" water pumps will flow more than a regular pump only at a higher RPM and with less drag so, they are great for a race type vehicle however, they flow LESS water at a lower pressure head than an O.E.M. water pump at low speed.
The FlowKooler water pump addresses that kind of situation ... I have used several on customer street engines to alleviate an over-heating problem.
AND, they are not expensive. I just get it through Summit; 1651 I think is the part number. [/quote]

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Post  Curt on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:01 am

IMHO, you need a shroud. Period. I am also of the thinking that you may need to slow the water down, not speed it up. The water needs time to transfer the heat when it gets to the radiator. Cooling should be as much of an importance as any other performance item on a big CuIn, high compression engine.
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Post  goinpostal on Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:07 pm

+1 for the shroud. I tried several combinations of 1 fan, 2 fans, pusher, and puller. What finally worked was making a shroud. It's nothing fancy, only sits about 1/4 in over the core, but it made a world of difference.

Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ? Img_2010
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Post  jbozzelle on Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:38 pm

I'd make a shroud and have it sit as far off the core as you can to get the fans to pull air through the whole core. Try that first. And like Curt said, try slowing the water down.

I chased my tail years ago on a small block with a similar cooling issue. My cure was a 200+* thermostat that was drilled to let some water flow but keep it in the block longer.

worked for me, may not for you...

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Post  Mike R on Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:53 pm

jbozzelle wrote:I'd make a shroud and have it sit as far off the core as you can to get the fans to pull air through the whole core.  Try that first.  And like Curt said, try slowing the water down.

I chased my tail years ago on a small block with a similar cooling issue.  My cure was a 200+* thermostat that was drilled to let some water flow but keep it in the block longer.

worked for me, may not for you...

This ^^ your thermostat is opening to fast and the coolant isn't staying in the radiator long enough to dissipate the heat, your also fans don't move enough air . I would build a shroud or better yet, go to a better fan, like the HHR ($46-80 at Rock auto) or a 88-90 3.8 Taurus fan ($64-84 at Rock auto) both of these move a ton of air, the connecter and pig tails are available new from the dealer. Big Block Ranger posted this a while back, very informative http://www.460ford.com/forum/37-engine-tech/135721-oem-electric-fan-info-bbr-cooling-issues.html

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Post  rmcomprandy on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:43 pm

jbozzelle wrote:I'd make a shroud and have it sit as far off the core as you can to get the fans to pull air through the whole core.  Try that first.  And like Curt said, try slowing the water down.

I chased my tail years ago on a small block with a similar cooling issue.  My cure was a 200+* thermostat that was drilled to let some water flow but keep it in the block longer.

worked for me, may not for you...

Slowing the water through the block will not usually make it run cooler without also raising the pressure head within that block. When the water is going through the radiator to fast and doesn't drop the water temp, it might help.

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Post  Colt Macara on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:27 pm

goinpostal wrote:+1 for the shroud. I tried several combinations of 1 fan, 2 fans, pusher, and puller. What finally worked was making a shroud. It's nothing fancy, only sits about 1/4 in over the core, but it made a world of difference.

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Off topic.... what is your routine for posting pictures?
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Post  goinpostal on Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:56 am

Colt Macara wrote:Off topic.... what is your routine for posting pictures?

I used to use links from photobucket, but that doesn't seem to work anymore. At least not in the preview. If you hover your mouse over the icons above the text area one of them is labeled "Host an image", I clicked that and uploaded a pic from my computer. It's the first time I've used it but it worked pretty well.
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Post  Colt Macara on Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:14 am

[quote="goinpostal"]
Colt Macara wrote:Off topic.... what is your routine for posting pictures?

I used to use links from photobucket, but that doesn't seem to work anymore. At least not in the preview. If you hover your mouse over the icons above the text area one of them is labeled "Host an image", I clicked that and uploaded a pic from my computer. It's the first time I've used it but it worked pretty well.

Wow thanks a lot! I lost photobucket awhile back. I've been trying everything on this site. It is knowing which icon to click. Thanks again.


Last edited by Colt Macara on Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Colt Macara on Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:24 pm

bigblockfordfxstb : Didn't mean to mess up your thread by posting pictures. I apologize.
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Post  BBFTorino on Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:46 am

Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ? S3010410

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Post  BBFTorino on Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:46 am

Wow!!...it worked!! Very Happy

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Post  bigblockfordfxstb on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:26 am

Hi All,

Thanks for the reply above, regarding the Cool the RAD and dual SPAL 1200CFM Fans, I would think at low speed and then back to idle once the car gets hot the fans and rad would keep things back to normal, but once its hot its hard to recover.

quite sure I will not have room for shroud around he fans as they need to sit back further.

I am going to double check my timing at IDLE / LOW RPM -

Below 1500RPM for slow movement - Traffic - Should this be around 17 BDC ?

And regarding fuel mixtures,cam is Comp Cam - 34-247-4 HYD - @.50 230 / 236 Lift.562 / 565 - Lobe sep - 110 / Intake Centerline - 106

My AFR at idle is around 13.6,


This was the V-Belt Kit used - https://www.cvfracing.com/Big-Block-Ford-V-Belt-Pulley-System-A-C-p/460-ac-system.htm

Question to CVF Regarding the Waterpump - Pulleys in the kit - .....

Thank you for contacting us. You did purchase our high flow option which is a 1:1 ratio. The pump you purchased is also an aluminum high flow model which is modeled after an Edelbrock unit, they tend to flow 20 - 30% better than stock units. The graph is really helpful. It looks like you there is just too much heat in the engine bay at idle. Are any of your coolant hoses near headers? The system you purchased is pretty bullet proof, but the data is compelling. Honestly I'm not sure where your issue might be. It looks like you have all the right components.

Support Team
CVF Racing


I did some further modification and filled the gap between the fan and rad to force the fans to pull only through the rad, even before doing a test would easy draw paper from from bumper to rad with suction...


Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ? Rad110



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Post  jasonf on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:16 pm

You need a shroud brother. Looking at that picture your fans are maybe pulling through 60% of the rad area?? Even if it was flat piece of 1/8" but you need to block the rest of the radiator so the fans will suck air through it. Can you go bigger on the fans?
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Post  TommyK on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:21 pm

My 2 cents...

I agree with Aquartlow that you need more airflow. I also agree with Curt that a shroud is needed so that the entire surface area of your radiator is working for you at idle. Given your space limitations you may want to look into the OEM Ford Contour dual fan setup. They are low profile (relatively) and draw about 3400 cfm. With a little googling you can find a dimensional drawing for it to help you determine if it will fit. Randy's suggestion about the flowkooler pump makes sense to me as well.

Also, are you running any type of temp coating or wrap on your headers?

Good luck.

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Post  FalconEh on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:14 pm

To add to the above posts, first you mentioned that "you have closed the tap on the heater hose" I would open it and get the the air out of the line then top up the system and add another bottle of "Water Wetter" if you only have one in the system. I am not a real fan of the idea of blocking off the heater hose, it will hold more water (1/2 - 3/4 L) it has a heat exchanger, and it completes the flow cycle. However bypassing it with a short piece of hose is a different scenario.
I would also ask the pressure of the radiator cap and the octane of the fuel you are running.
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Post  bigblockfordfxstb on Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:01 am

Hi,

I have looked a factory fan and shroud setups and you can see from the pic without it I already have less than an inch or so of space....

Regarding the hoses etc this is what I had done.

- Blocked off the Water Pump Bypass hose (small unit between pump and block ) from reading this forces all water via the RAD
- Drilled about 6 x 3mm holes around the high flow thermostat so not to allow pressure build up.
- The heater hoses are connected to the heater box, and I had this connected with in the ON for a few drives and made sure all air is out of the system (cook head in car feature). But reading a few comments and someone had written that better to turn the heater off (switch that controls water) than leave on, and dont run a hose in a loop as can affect water flow again.

I can add the rest of the 2nd bottle of water wetter

During a few few short drives and park, next day would go out and top off the overflow levels as it had sucked the small amount out as it cooled, did this twice... but now it expands and shrinks as expected...

The RAD cap STANT - 21-25 PSI No Lever


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Post  pmrphil on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:33 am

Nice job sealing the fans to the radiator - I like.

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