Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on January 31st 2018, 4:24 pm

I put that edge seal on just this weekend as using my airflow fleabay meter i could measure is sucking from the gap on the fan side, i was able to measure a difference from the front side pulling but will see once i take it out for a drive.

Also sent off an email to Rad manufacturer to ask about shround / possibility or doing half on one side or some radical offset style to see if can miss that waterpump pulley etc.
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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  jasonf on January 31st 2018, 7:11 pm

bigblockfordfxstb wrote:I put that edge seal on just this weekend as using my airflow fleabay meter i could measure is sucking from the gap on the fan side, i was able to measure a difference from the front side pulling but will see once i take it out for a drive.

Also sent off an email to Rad manufacturer to ask about shround /  possibility or doing half on one side or some radical offset style to see if can miss that waterpump pulley etc.

Where do you live at?
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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  stanger68 on February 1st 2018, 12:09 am

You don't need to call the manufacturer for a shroud. All you need to do is cut a piece of 16 ga. aluminum the size of the radiator core then cut two round holes in it the size of the fans, drill mounting holes and wa la. you have a shroud. You wont loose any clearance to speak of. Judging from the pic you shouldn't need a lip, just flat metal.

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 6th 2018, 9:23 am

Afternoon all,

Stanger68, the issue around just putting on a shroud is the clearance between the waterpump shaft & pulley and the fans.

I need to think about how I would mount the shroud, and if I can offset the fans anymore as you can see from the photo I dont have clearance on the right fan is very tight...

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 6th 2018, 9:39 am

I may post another topic question, but with the various info in my initial post with my engine build, what should my base timing be 12deg BTDC ? or expected to be ? And also the advance rpm levels at 2000, 3000 etc.

At present RPM
850 16-17deg
1500 24deg
2600 36deg
3000 38-39deg






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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  stanger68 on February 6th 2018, 8:53 pm

16 ga.is less than a 1/16 of an inch thick. 14 ga. is about an even 1/16 that's only 1 or 2 rounds of threads on that mounting stud that is holding the fan in your pic.

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 6th 2018, 9:23 pm

Hi Stanger.
If i made a shroud and the fan sits ontop, its going to hit the waterpump ? (It looks to be around 1/4 inch) If the shroud is only say 7/16 from the actual surface of the core will it even work , and or not totaly block it for higher speed ?





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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  stanger68 on February 7th 2018, 12:55 am

At higher speeds it will act like an air dam and cool even more. What is happening now is the hot air is circling around the fan. Air, water, oil, electricity, etc. will always take the path of least resistance, without a shroud it is easier for the fan to pull from the gap than through the flue's of the radiator. Some engines will work without a shroud in certain body styles but when they are crammed in a tight space like your car, you're going to have to work for it.

The only reason I said aluminum is its lighter and will match the radiator better aesthetically. You could use thinner steel sheet metal which is more rigid if it helps with clearance. Or if you have access to a bead roller add some beads for reinforcement. As short as the span is it shouldn't need much if any reinforcement. I would stop by your local metal supply they probably have scraps they will give to make something that small.

Think of it this way... in the current form the fan is trying to draw water through a straw without it's lips on the straw. I'm sure the weatherstripping will do some good, it may even be enough depending on the climate but you're only effectively using half the radiator.

As for the timing I'd say you're in the right ball park 12-16. Run as much as you can and it still crank easily when it's hot. which is normally around 14-15 deg initial.

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 7th 2018, 2:26 am

Yer nice one thanks for help.

I thought the weather strip made a difference as testing the air flow around the fans with a air flow meter thingi, the fans where sucking from the gaps around the fan shrouds. But it was short lived once at traffic lights.

Got a few other small things also to test next...

1. Strip out inners of thermostat to see if could be flow restriction problem.
2. Once hot say 210f . Pull over and keep revs at 2000rpm. I noticed in one of my small temp logs when i did this for about 5 seconds It dropped a few degf. Possible pulley ratio issue ? CVF pulleys and supplier waterpump say it should be bulletproof. I belive its a 1:1 ratio ( will double check tonight the WP pulley is not slightly smaller) and the WP itself is supposed to flow 20% more even at low RPM as questioned it was not some racing 5000rpm unit etc....

The rad supplier saying it possible that it may well be a capacity issue and require more, slightly wider and thicker  core. But consern is wider core is less space again so would like test the shroud idea also before going to that step.

I may be also about to lower the bottom rad support slightly and move the rad forward 3/8' give me slighly more room without cutting the front rad support that is structural....

Will post some more pics....

Shoukd have listened to my dad years ago... dont touch the car...
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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  jasonf on February 7th 2018, 9:55 am

I think you are missing the point of what we are saying about the shroud. Looking at your pictures the fan mounting tabs on the radiator are already spaced off the core. Just take some 16 ga alum the size of the hole radiator and rivet/screw it to the fan tabs (Of course you have to cut two holes for the fans first). Lose the fan seals because you won't need them now. This will space your fans back 1/16" which you have room for. It will also force the fans to suck all their air through the entire radiator core.
Jason

bigblockfordfxstb wrote:Hi,





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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 7th 2018, 10:09 am

Hi Jasonf,

I hear you, but that small amount of gap would be fine yes ?! just when I see all the other shrouds , they normally have some space...I also might be able to squeeze an extra 3/8 with pushing the rad in under the rad cross member giving more space !

Thank again
R
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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  jbozzelle on February 7th 2018, 11:47 am

All you can do is try. A small space between the core and shroud is better than no space. If you can push the radiator forward at all that will help.

Plus if you could shift that one fan off to the side any more and get it away from the pulley that would help you to make the shroud deeper. That fan doesn't need to sit directly over the core. If you have a shroud that would direct the air to it you could let the fan hang off the side of the tank and let the shroud direct air to it...

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  jasonf on February 7th 2018, 1:27 pm

bigblockfordfxstb wrote:Hi Jasonf,

I hear you, but that small amount of gap would be fine yes ?! just when I see all the other shrouds , they normally have some space...I also might be  able to squeeze an extra 3/8 with pushing the rad in under the rad cross member giving more space !

Thank again
R

I built a shroud for my tbucket and it was less then 1/2" so I would try it.

This is what I mean.

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 7th 2018, 3:31 pm

Great information. Ill get to working on this, will be little time before can get to it thou!



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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on February 20th 2018, 5:07 pm

More info to follow on temp recordings





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Update - 10mm Shroud and temp readings

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on March 12th 2018, 10:12 am

Hi, have included some pics - big delay in posting... so little time for anything...

Fans mounted on the shroud, shroud is mounted on rad using the same protruding bolts that held the fans, and run rubber edging to seal it up. The nuts on the fans pull it closer. (12inch Spal )

Even less clearance now between fan and waterpump. but you will see from the temp charts a far better result with shroud . Driving route both carried out around the same directions paths. Few little straights, but mostly light traffic , stop lights, turns etc.

It has made good improvement, but it looks like it will still eventually get hot if in traffic over time as the fans are unable to recover enough. Sure if I can get get on a clear main road , but cant always drive on motorway.

Looks now the be a possible capacity issue. so looking at a wider and thicker core with larger 14inch fans and shroud. have been able to mount the rad forward about 15mm for the thicker core, and wider is not a problem as the car has factory mounts. see dummy setup with foam template and 14 fan (will be running dual 14inch)









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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  rmk57 on March 12th 2018, 12:29 pm

I guess if all else fails you could locate a short C8SE T-bird water pump and use a 19 inch fan from a full size car or Ford truck and give that a shot. If that wont cool it nothing will.

I've been using this setup for a few years and it never goes above 185 degrees.

Here's a link to the pump......https://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-pump-assembly-1969-70-Ford-Mustang-Boss-429/222869199746?epid=1927776124&hash=item33e40a1b82:g:2u0AAOSwuIRanfxR&vxp=mtr

Nice work you do BTW.

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  stanger68 on March 12th 2018, 10:56 pm

Try running it without a thermostat before you buy anything else.

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  aquartlow on March 17th 2018, 8:34 am

If possible, see if you can possibly run a 16" and a 12" fan instead of 2-14" fans, there is sometimes more cfm gained by going to a larger fan than the penalty by going to the smaller 12" fan. The motors are a certain size and they themselves block or lessen the cfm ratings of your fans, with a larger fan blade diameter you get more cooling using the same size fan motor. Sounds a bit crazy but look at the fan cfm ratings to see if there are gains to be made that will still fit your shroud/core size. Blade design plays a BIG role in cooling efficiency, swept blades have good flow and are quieter, but the paddle fan design usually have a bit more flow for the same size blade but are noisier. You can also "spread" the fans a bit by placing them more towards each corner(diagonally), possibly giving you more clearance for a larger fan's "footprint" and/or more water pump clearance. Good luck and hope this helps.
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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on March 19th 2018, 6:01 am

Hi aquartlow,

I've got a 16" and 14" fan now and looking a wider , thicker core for more water capacity and width to get the fans on.

Does anyone know the actual water capacity of the 460 block / head vs 351 Cleveland ?

The manufacturer said my radiator 'should' support 500-600hp on a 351 cleveland, but a Ford 460 needs more capacity and this would not suit.

My build I would say is mild build - . 40' over , mild cam, cast heads ported, dual plane intake, not anything like 500hp I would not think.... but told I need more capacity.

R



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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  aquartlow on March 19th 2018, 5:00 pm

I do not have a capacity figure on the block, but my system's coolant capacity is between 17-18 quarts +/-(includes heater core). I run a Champion all aluminum 3 row with a 16.5" x 28" core with a '95 Ford Windstar dual electric fan cooling assembly and it does a great job of cooling my mild 472 here in central Fl. even during summer with the A/C on. The all aluminum Champion isn't the best choice "out there" but it has served me well and is at least decently well made. More capacity is almost always better, as is a better performing fan(s). Good luck.
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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on March 19th 2018, 5:06 pm

Hi good info but any link or detail how thick the core itself is? Some alloy rads have wider rows (makes up the core) so can have 2 that is the same width as 3 'core'.... and more capacity.
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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on March 19th 2018, 5:21 pm

Hi good info but any link or detail how thick the core itself is? Some alloy rads have wider rows (makes up the core) so can have 2 that is the same width as 3 'core'.... and more capacity.

Looking at your details. My core is 2.2inch made up of 2 x rows 'wide tubes'. It's only slightly taller by about an 1' but not as wide a good 3-4 inches.

Still be good to know block capacity. Very hard to compare a complete cooling system.....
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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  stanger68 on March 19th 2018, 7:21 pm

Just curious if you ever tried it without a thermostat? Can't imagine it not helping at least a little bit.

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Re: Running 2 hot seeking advice - Timing ?

Post  bigblockfordfxstb on March 19th 2018, 7:28 pm

I have a high flow thermostat and drilled all around the outside etc but my understandings is that will just extend the time before it get hot....
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