High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

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High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 7th 2018, 11:50 am

What are the reasons for dissing the Melling 84DHV. My machinist/build adviser and I are having a gentleman's disagreement Smile on the use of the HV vs standard oil pump. Can someone / builders / racers tell me why I don't want more oil in and around my cam, bearings, crank etc.
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  rmcomprandy on February 7th 2018, 12:16 pm

Colt Macara wrote:What are the reasons for dissing the Melling 84DHV. My machinist/build adviser and I are having a gentleman's disagreement Smile on the use of the HV vs standard oil pump. Can someone / builders / racers tell me why I don't want more oil in and around my cam, bearings, crank etc.

I will depend upon the oil volume DEMAND of the engine mostly determined by bearing clearances and RPM.

There is no straightforward right or wrong answer here.
A high volume oil pump does NOT put more oil in those places unless it NEEDS and is seeking more oil. It merely sends more oil through the by-pass to get heated more.

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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 7th 2018, 12:30 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
Colt Macara wrote:What are the reasons for dissing the Melling 84DHV. My machinist/build adviser and I are having a gentleman's disagreement Smile on the use of the HV vs standard oil pump. Can someone / builders / racers tell me why I don't want more oil in and around my cam, bearings, crank etc.

I will depend upon the oil volume DEMAND of the engine mostly determined by bearing clearances and RPM.

There is no straightforward right or wrong answer here.
A high volume oil pump does NOT put more oil in those places unless it NEEDS and is seeking more oil. It merely sends more oil through the by-pass to get heated more.

I guess my next question then Randy, is, why the High Volume Pump? The only reason I bring up Paul Kane is because I highly respect him and his "Dynamics" website is heavy on lubrication and he is a proponent of this very pump I speak of,.....if his website is any indication of his opinion on the matter.
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  gt350hr on February 7th 2018, 2:26 pm

Colt,
High volume pumps were "created" by hot rodders in the late '50s. One of the pioneers was Otto Rissman a drag racer and lakes racer. His company Otto Parts sold kits to increase oil volume for the popular engines back then. He did this to cure bearing issues racers were having. Hind sight shows engine power , rpm , and factory parts ( rods-bearings-oil pans etc) were not up to par back then especially for some of the fuels( alcohol and nitro) they were playing with. Oil pump manufacturers and performance parts sellers combined to offer "off the shelf" high volume pumps to take advantage of the "trend". Ford engineers worked with Melling to design the "dual entry" pump for use in the high performance 385 engines including the Boss 429. IF they felt it needed a higher volume pump , they would have used one. LOTS of experimentation was done including some "spur gear" (GM style) pumps.
Many of us do not use HV pumps and many others do. "My" reasons are "I" feel only so much oil will flow through a .500 hole @ 50-60 psi. Since oil pressure gauges actually read "back pressure" , I feel I have adequate "supply" from a standard pump and do not need more volume from a larger pump with the clearances I run. I ALWAYS use a higher capacity oil pan to prevent oil pump starvation another issue "I" feel is one off the reasons guys went to HV pumps. In a "perfect" world , I would like to see the oil flow be exactly equal to the demand for zero pressure but that "dream" would not make oil flow up to main galleries , lifter galleries , lifters and pushrods , so pressure MUST be there. My goal is always to avoid "part induced oil pan failure".
Others will have a different opinion I'm sure.
(another) Randy

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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  rmcomprandy on February 7th 2018, 3:43 pm

Colt Macara wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
Colt Macara wrote:What are the reasons for dissing the Melling 84DHV. My machinist/build adviser and I are having a gentleman's disagreement Smile on the use of the HV vs standard oil pump. Can someone / builders / racers tell me why I don't want more oil in and around my cam, bearings, crank etc.

I will depend upon the oil volume DEMAND of the engine mostly determined by bearing clearances and RPM.

There is no straightforward right or wrong answer here.
A high volume oil pump does NOT put more oil in those places unless it NEEDS and is seeking more oil. It merely sends more oil through the by-pass to get heated more.

I guess my next question then Randy, is, why the High Volume Pump? The only reason I bring up Paul Kane is because I highly respect him and his "Dynamics" website is heavy on lubrication and he is a proponent of this very pump I speak of,.....if his website is any indication of his opinion on the matter.

Use whatever you want ... sorry I extended these facts, no skin off my nose either way.  
Personally, as long as there is enough oil pressure to accomplish "filling the need";  I actually make a lot of Ford pumps 9% SMALLER by milling the gerotor and housing .100" Wink

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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Lem Evans on February 7th 2018, 4:28 pm

There are few engines that require the huge 1.375" rotors of the HV units.

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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 7th 2018, 8:59 pm

Thanks for the responses....... Randy, I'm not sure what it is about you, reading comprehension? or if you are just an old curmudgeon. I didn't say any thing to have you give a sarcastic response like "Use whatever you want ... sorry I extended these facts, no skin off my nose either way." I was asking a legitimate question. I was curious about the differences of opinion. I thought Paul was a well respected seller, purveyor and proponent of BBF parts. That is why I used his name, because he sells the very parts I'm inquiring about. Sheeeze!
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  rmcomprandy on February 7th 2018, 9:04 pm

Colt Macara wrote:Thanks for the responses....... Randy, I'm not sure what it is about you, reading comprehension? or if you are just an old curmudgeon. I didn't say any thing to have you give a sarcastic response like "Use whatever you want ... sorry I extended these facts, no skin off my nose either way." I was asking a legitimate question. I was curious about the differences of opinion. I thought Paul was a well respected seller, purveyor and proponent of BBF parts. That is why I used his name, because he sells the very parts I'm inquiring about. Sheeeze!

That response was not meant to be sarcastic at all ... I meant everything I said ... in the nicest possible way.

I extended a legitimate answer ... you challenged it, wanting more information from me to justify that answer.  
I have no interest in making a debate with anyone, if they disagree ... just do whatever they want.

Sheeeze ... sorry your feelings got injured.

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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Lem Evans on February 7th 2018, 9:21 pm

A real life example :

Moroso and Peterson Fluid System have sold external oil pumps with "Ford" G-rotor style pumps. Their HV section were/are 1.100".......same as Ford usual section. The Kaase oil pumps are 1.100" section.

If anyone has an issue with what I said, please refrain from name calling.


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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 7th 2018, 9:32 pm

I won't ask anymore questions over here, lest I infuriate the "Elite Builders" on the Seventh floor.
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  dfree383 on February 7th 2018, 9:54 pm

Colt Macara wrote:I won't ask anymore questions over here, lest I infuriate the "Elite Builders" on the Seventh floor.

Your not making anyone mad, they are trying to answer your question.

HV pumps have their place and applications, some use them some don’t it’s not a yes or no answer.
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Lem Evans on February 7th 2018, 10:22 pm

dfree383 wrote:
Colt Macara wrote:I won't ask anymore questions over here, lest I infuriate the "Elite Builders" on the Seventh floor.

Your not making anyone mad, they are trying to answer your question.

HV pumps have their place and applications, some use them some don’t it’s not a yes or no answer.

Dave Please, If is guy is not a troll he should quit acting like one.

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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 8th 2018, 12:33 am

dfree383 wrote:
Colt Macara wrote:I won't ask anymore questions over here, lest I infuriate the "Elite Builders" on the Seventh floor.

Your not making anyone mad, they are trying to answer your question.

HV pumps have their place and applications, some use them some don’t it’s not a yes or no answer.

Dave, these are the 2 answers from prominent elite power brokers in the BBF World! Good grief that I would ask the great one for a more definitive answer!
"I will depend upon the oil volume DEMAND of the engine mostly determined by bearing clearances and RPM"
"Moroso and Peterson Fluid System have sold external oil pumps with "Ford" G-rotor style pumps"

Then I'm referred to as a troll..... I wanted to know what the drawbacks were to the HV pump, which commonly is advertised in every crate motor sold on the planet. Why not use them? what is the problem with more volume?

Edit: Unbenounced to me, I must of hit a nerve on a subject personal, I am totally unaware of.
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Lem Evans on February 8th 2018, 1:05 am

You are a troll

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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 8th 2018, 8:12 am

Lem Evans wrote:You are a troll

Yeah, I've been hanging around here for 4 years, just so I can ask a question that you might be involved in so I can irritate the heck out of you. You are not the person I thought you were. I still am interested in an answer to my original question. If it sets your hair on fire Lem..... you might want to back off of answering any of my posts.
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 8th 2018, 8:25 am

Back to my original question. In building a BBF with increased cubic inches and inherent power, there has been quite a lot of discussion for modifying oil passages the radius around the oil filter hole, enhancing a passageway at the distributor gear etc. Also in this typical discussions, the addition of a high volume oil pump is talked about. My question is, what is the advantage to adding a high volume oil pump and are there any distinct dis-advantages. There seems to be some in the camp that say it can actually be harmful. I'm interested in both sides of the argument, if you will. I have run a high volume pump in a SBF 1/4 mile car without any noticeable problems. I 'm interested in doing the same in a BBF an wondering if it has any drawbacks. To add to the information, I'm building a 750 HP 521 that would be set up with typical clearances. The car would be an 1/8 mile bracket car that would top out at the 6800-7000 RPM redline.
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 8th 2018, 8:49 am

This is part of a description of the FMS 514/521 crate motor. Note the bold print.

"A 514 cubic inch engine assembly that includes the items listed above and a multi-index timing chain, 4130 one-piece push rods, HV oil pump, pickup, oil pan, M-6582-C460 valve covers, aluminum front cover and water pump, damper, flywheel, spark plugs, related long block engine parts and remanufactured block .030" overbore – to which Ford Racing engineers have added:"

This is a description from a $14,995 engine from 'Cars by Carl' Please not the Bold print.

-Choice of 429 to 557 Cubic Inches
-Nodular iron crankshaft - factory reconditioned, RPM, or Eagle
-Forged I-beam rods - RPM, Scat, or Eagle
-Reconditioned factory block
-AFR Bullitt aluminum heads
-Lunati roller rockers
-Lunati billet roller timing set
-Lunati roller camshaft, and lifters
-AFR, Edelbrock, or Weiand aluminum intake
-Forged Diamond Racing pistons
-Total Seal file fit rings
-King HP rod and main bearings
-Aftermarket oil pan
-High Flow Dynamics oil pump

*
I'm just reiterating, they seem to be prevalent in many of todays crate motors.... I was just interested in "what is the knock on the HV pump in a High Performance application?
*
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  cletus66 on February 8th 2018, 9:24 am

rmcomprandy wrote:
Colt Macara wrote:What are the reasons for dissing the Melling 84DHV. My machinist/build adviser and I are having a gentleman's disagreement Smile on the use of the HV vs standard oil pump. Can someone / builders / racers tell me why I don't want more oil in and around my cam, bearings, crank etc.

I will depend upon the oil volume DEMAND of the engine mostly determined by bearing clearances and RPM.

There is no straightforward right or wrong answer here.
A high volume oil pump does NOT put more oil in those places unless it NEEDS and is seeking more oil. It merely sends more oil through the by-pass to get heated more.


I don't think you can get any more clear than this...
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 8th 2018, 10:20 am

cletus66 wrote:
rmcomprandy wrote:
Colt Macara wrote:What are the reasons for dissing the Melling 84DHV. My machinist/build adviser and I are having a gentleman's disagreement Smile on the use of the HV vs standard oil pump. Can someone / builders / racers tell me why I don't want more oil in and around my cam, bearings, crank etc.

I will depend upon the oil volume DEMAND of the engine mostly determined by bearing clearances and RPM.

There is no straightforward right or wrong answer here.
A high volume oil pump does NOT put more oil in those places unless it NEEDS and is seeking more oil. It merely sends more oil through the by-pass to get heated more.


I don't think you can get any more clear than this...

"It merely sends more oil through the by-pass to get heated more." Is the heat a good thing or a bad thing. I know excessive oil temperatures are normally undesirable. How does going through the by-pass heat the oil? Doesn't the HV pump insure to "put more oil in those places unless it NEEDS and is seeking more oil" How do we know when areas of the engine NEED OR DON'T NEED more oil. If oil pressure is good and there isn't any fluctuation (cavitation) we should be able to feel comfortable, 'all things are good' with the oiling system. My questions again is... What are the drawbacks from running a HV oil pump? As I stated in my original post "Some builders don't recommend the HV pump..... I'm just trying to understand why. If there is a possibility of a void or cavitation, wouldn't more volume help to insure against that. I had intended to run an HV pump, but I didn't want to do anything that would be a detriment to the performance of the build. That is the ONLY reason I was asking. If it is a detriment, what are they?
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  dfree383 on February 8th 2018, 10:50 am

Bud if you don’t like the answers please just move along, Lem and Randy have both explained everything

Just because you don’t like the answers is no reason to keep trolling.

And if cars by Carl is your idea of a fine top end builder you need to just stay with him and go ask his advice. I’m sure he can bolt together a fine crate engine for you to use.
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 8th 2018, 11:03 am

dfree383 wrote:Bud if you don’t like the answers please just move along, Lem and Randy have both explained everything

Just because you don’t like the answers is no reason to keep trolling.

And if cars by Carl is your idea of a fine top end builder you need to just stay with him and go ask his advice. I’m sure he can bolt together a fine crate engine for you to use.

Thanks for understanding.
I wasn't recommending any engine builder, I was just giving examples of crate motors that have HV pumps. They didn't answer my question. Are there any drawbacks to running a HV pump?

"just move along"??? Bwahahahaha......
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Colt Macara on February 8th 2018, 12:03 pm

This is an interesting thread by Jon Kaase. Even the great ones are baffled once in a while. One of the posters in the thread thought his own problem might be due to an HV pump and it turned out to be a windage problem.

I post part of Jons post here because he was even questioning his oil pump....

Jons Quote "Because we needed to know whether the problem was the pump or the short block, or the pan, we decided to change pans to my EngineMasters pan and pickup. It’s a 12” deep front sump with no baffles or screens or covers anywhere. Just a big, deep, open pan.
Well, we ran it today, and it was perfect. Even when the oil was hot. It started at 72 psi and would gain a pound or two at 7000. The pressure gauge was perfectly steady, where with the other pan it would bounce a little. We only had 7 qts of oil in the pan!
So, the oil pressure problem was obviously the oil pan. I think most people would have blamed the pump. I had my doubts about it. Now we have to figure out what’s happening in the customer’s pan and fix it. There is a square hole in the screen for the pickup to fit through when the pan is installed. I think maybe all the windage and pulses from the pistons above are disrupting the oil around the pickup.
Next week we’ll work on the pan, and I’ll post some pictures and dyno sheets here.... Kaase"

Here is the link to the thread.....

http://www.429-460.com/t4697-kaase-on-oil-pressure-problems
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  Albert Clark on February 8th 2018, 12:42 pm

Here we go another guy that is wanting an answer that he thinks is correct in what he is thinking. Ok you are right yes it is correct what you are doing so do it and shut up for Christ sakes.. The only one you seem to be arguing with is yourself. Stop winning like a baby and move on, you seem to think building a cast crank, 325 TFS headed engine with a torque II and a 1050 is going to net you 700+hp well good luck with that. now move on and quit dwelling on this. If these guys say its not a good Idea then that's what I would go with but what do they know they have built more engines than you will ever imagine so you have to be right...



Up yours Truly Albert

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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  IDT-572 on February 8th 2018, 1:27 pm

An engine only needs as much oil as it needs to protect or operate it internals. Any more than that or any less could be very bad, or may have minimal effects.

If theres not enough volume and pressure to fill all the oil voids with a little left over for good measure, bad things happen.

A little bit too much, still probably no ill effects. But a high volume high pressure pump on a tight clearance, street engine with a stock pan, now your gonna see the problem with a hv hp pump. One pumping the pan dry. Some say washing the bearings out,(I dont subscribe to this). Then there is also the problem with over heating the oil at highway speeds. Plus the added parasitic drag of turning a HP HV pump for no need. I have also seen numerous tme oil pump drive shafts twisted off and cast iron gears destroyed.

Now to answer your question, is there reasons not to use, or is it bad to use a HV HP, you have to understand that the specs of the engine and the intended use of the engine is what determines what pump to use and not to use............

Also ther will be over lap where both style pumps will work surfice. Will they be perfect in the over lap deal, no..........But the engine will run and survive.

There a variables in every build that require a builder to survey what he is dealing with and then make the decision on what pump to run.

This is not a yes/no question. No definate exact answer.

Stock builds to stock block nitro builds (70 weight oil .006-.010 clearance) to all out all aftermarket parts builds. All require a thought full look at the oiling system and all are different.


I just don't know how to explain it any better than that. Not saying it's the right answer to your question, just saying it answered to my best ability.


If that don't surfice, you neede to talk to Albert somemore.............Shocked Cool Laughing  Hope it helped.........
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Re: High Volume BBF Oil Pump - Bad Idea???

Post  jeffgfg on February 8th 2018, 2:43 pm

My thought would be to call or e-mail Paul and get his thoughts if that's whose pump you want to use.

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