474CJ freeze-up

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474CJ freeze-up

Post  gcj on April 21st 2018, 6:49 pm

Hi:

I have made some references to this engine failure a long time ago. Here is what happened:

Car ran normally, would not handle low octane fuel. Engine is D0VE-A block, D0OE-R heads, D0OE rods, 2YABC crank, .060 over with L-2404F60 pistons. Cam: Crane 354551 with all corresponding Crane components.

Problem description: Engine seized up.

Cause: Piece of steel wire got sucked into Milodon pickup, into M84 Melling oil pump. Got wedged inside pump. Pump drive axle broke at top of shaft. Engine quit thereafter.

Question: Can anyone tell what this piece of steel wire is from?

Pictures:













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474CJ engine pic.

Post  gcj on April 21st 2018, 7:02 pm



This is the engine. All good guy Ford stuff, crank, rods, etc. FM bearings, TRW rings, FelPro gaskets, Milodon pan & P/U, Melling pump ...

I have always made cleanliness my main object during builds.... this is my first such failure .... foreign object in engine... where did it come from?

GCJ

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  pmrphil on April 21st 2018, 8:59 pm

Tig filler rod from screen assembly? I don't know the process used - mig or tig? Just a thought.
No warning light?

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  DanH on April 22nd 2018, 12:42 am

He had to have run the engine with no oil pressure. for some time for it to lock up.

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474CJ freeze-up

Post  gcj on April 22nd 2018, 4:05 am

Yes, the engine ran for a bit after the pump shaft severed. Bearing damage, mains.

So, you think the wire may be welding type and that its origin may be from inside the pickup screen or tube... quite plausible.

Bought Milodon items several years ago from vendor on EBAY, so claiming is going to be hard.

Later.

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  jbozzelle on April 22nd 2018, 9:55 am

Looks like some Mig wire to me that was probably inside the pickup assembly.

either that or it's a piece of wire that was used to hang that pickup when it was dipped into the alodine solution to make it gold...

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  DaveMcLain on April 22nd 2018, 2:55 pm

That could be a piece of a wire lifter retaining clip. You know the thing that holds the hydraulic metering parts inside of the lifter body....

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  Paul Kane on April 22nd 2018, 6:14 pm

gcj wrote:Yes, the engine ran for a bit after the pump shaft severed. Bearing damage, mains...Bought Milodon items several years ago from vendor on EBAY, so claiming is going to be hard.
Claim what exactly?
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Claims ....

Post  gcj on April 22nd 2018, 6:24 pm

Paul, I have circa $10.000 in this engine ... If that wire was a "bonus" that came with the pump pick up, then under normal circumstances the responsible party should pay.

That is off the table, of course but I thought the comment I made was proper, all things considered.

Eng. has less than 1K miles on it .....

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  pmrphil on April 22nd 2018, 7:06 pm

Keep in mind, though, a warning light would have lowered your repair cost to a oil pump shaft and a pan gasket. I've had many engines through the shop that have been saved with an idiot light, and a few that weren't saved because of the lack of a light. About as cheap insurance as having oil in it.

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  Paul Kane on April 22nd 2018, 7:19 pm

gcj wrote:Paul, I have circa $10.000 in this engine ... If that wire was a "bonus" that came with the pump pick up, then under normal circumstances the responsible party should pay.
And if the wire were "a 'bonus' that came with the pump pick up" (ie, debris in a newly fabricated engine component) then who do you feel is the responsible party to pay? The engine builder who missed it during his parts inspection and cleaning?  Certainly you cannot be accusing Milodon.

And what if the wire is from a lifter and worked itself free from the lifter body during engine operation? Is that the engine builder's fault too? Or would you allege it's the part manufacturer's fault?

I wouldn't call this a parts manufacturer's fault, and possibly not even the engine builder's fault (depending upon exactly what the item is and where it came from).

Thus far I would say this is nobody's fault but rather just the luck of the draw in your high performance $10,000 engine.

My feelings about this may change once a thorough diagnosis is completed and confirmed, but at this point you are premature in your accusations, and if the wire is what you believe it to be then it is certainly still not the part manufacturer's fault.
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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  rmcomprandy on April 22nd 2018, 8:15 pm

Aftermarket engine parts manufacturers will undoubtedly have expressed a "Limited Warranty" which will cover THAT part but, will cover the cost of nothing else, even if that part was the cause of other failures.

If you can prove a failure with their part then they will probably give you a new one ... that's it; nothing else.

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  68galaxie on April 23rd 2018, 9:39 am

Almost looks like a coat hanger wire. I almost lost a piece of a coat hanger wire when setting camshaft timing many years ago when younger.
We used to use the coat hanger wire for a timing indicator when degreeing the cam. The timing cover was off - and the oil pan was on.
Hence the broken wire almost falling into the oil pan.

Not saying this happened to you - just a possibility.

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  DeepRoots on April 23rd 2018, 11:38 am

I don't know about anyone else, but I spent an hour cleaning up the extra wire and debris from the inside of my expensive Moroso oil pan during my engine build.

Is quality control insufficient on these parts?  probably, but it ends with me assembling it.
Either way, sorry for the original poster, it certainly is a bad situation.

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  DaveMcLain on April 25th 2018, 3:25 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
gcj wrote:Paul, I have circa $10.000 in this engine ... If that wire was a "bonus" that came with the pump pick up, then under normal circumstances the responsible party should pay.
And if the wire were "a 'bonus' that came with the pump pick up" (ie, debris in a newly fabricated engine component) then who do you feel is the responsible party to pay? The engine builder who missed it during his parts inspection and cleaning?  Certainly you cannot be accusing Milodon.

And what if the wire is from a lifter and worked itself free from the lifter body during engine operation? Is that the engine builder's fault too? Or would you allege it's the part manufacturer's fault?

I wouldn't call this a parts manufacturer's fault, and possibly not even the engine builder's fault (depending upon exactly what the item is and where it came from).

Thus far I would say this is nobody's fault but rather just the luck of the draw in your high performance $10,000 engine.

My feelings about this may change once a thorough diagnosis is completed and confirmed, but at this point you are premature in your accusations, and if the wire is what you believe it to be then it is certainly still not the part manufacturer's fault.

What's interesting is that I've seen an engine with one of those clips broken and or popped out of the lifter before and there was no noticeable symptoms. The lifter worked normally and didn't fly apart. But if it is one of those clips why did it come out? Was it caused by over revving the engine?

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  pmrphil on April 25th 2018, 5:37 pm

The shape doesn't appear to be a lifter clip. Something to compare it to size-wise would narrow the possibilities, and also the thickness of the wire.

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my big Cobra Jet ...

Post  gcj on April 25th 2018, 5:44 pm

Guys, please don´t come down so hard over a potential fault that may lie south of the sun and north of the moon.

My purpose by sharing this was:

1. To see if anyone recognized the steel wire that found its way into the oil pump.
2. To keep an old promise I made when the engine originally broke down.
3. I was not driving the car, so I can not vouch for anything other than what I saw when I opened the oil pump.
4. I am not making claims for anything to anybody.
5. The good news is that the pistons, rods, heads are all OK. I thought I had a broken piston because this engine is around 12.2 : 1 CR.

As many of you know and have experienced over the years, things break, fall apart. bend, melt, wedge, split ... you name it.

i built my first engine in 1977. I have never seen anything like this. Ever.

The good news, again, these engines will not fail if built right, cleaned, run with care and kept in the right tune. I took years planning this engine, getting the parts for it, using the best available machine shops and the best available parts, within the realm of common sense.

I used the best available advice, including from some big names on this site. Clearances were set for street and endurance. Here is a run down of parts that went into this engine. Just for the heck of it:

DOVE - A 2 - bolt main block out of a ´70 N-code Cyclone
D0OE-R heads with new one piece Milodon CJ valves. Professionally done by a good machinist.
D0OE Spread Bore intake
7040288 Rochester for a ´70 CJ W/O air. - A/T
2yABC crank .020
Federal Mogul bearings. Clearance set at .0015 main and rods
TRW L-2404F60 pistons
FM E296K rings. End gaps set at .022 top; .018 second
D0OE rods. ARP bolts. Clearanced at .0035
Crane 354551 cam w. matching lifters
99837-16 springs. (very similar rating to the 428CJ OEM springs, single w. damper)
Melling M84H CJ style oil pump
ARP pump drive shaft
FelPro gaskets

And this is the car I put it in:



474 in the hoist: Picture taken in April 2008.



(Maybe that explains the frustration on my part)

Rebuilding this engine will be a pleasure because this is not a structural failure that can be traced to its design.

I have a new crankshaft for it ... bearings and all. Maybe this time we try this:






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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  DaveMcLain on April 25th 2018, 5:52 pm

pmrphil wrote:The shape doesn't appear to be a lifter clip. Something to compare it to size-wise would narrow the possibilities, and also the thickness of the wire.

It sure looks like one to me.  Normally they are a somewhat square C shape and this is a piece that broke off so now one looks like an L. Having something to give it scale would help but the dent in the pump rotor seems to show its size pretty well.


Last edited by DaveMcLain on April 25th 2018, 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  pmrphil on April 25th 2018, 5:52 pm

My observations/replies are not intended to be critical (ok, maybe my mentioning the lack of a light was Embarassed ) just more of trying to help figure out where it came from to hopefully prevent anyone else from having the same experience.

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  pmrphil on April 25th 2018, 5:57 pm

Easy way to check - are all the clips in the lifters? The mark on the rotor looks kind of long to me.

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Better pictures

Post  gcj on April 25th 2018, 7:20 pm

Here are some more pictures: PLS Note: The engine had less than 1.000 miles on it.

The wire does not look like the correct size for lifter lockring. Seems thinner, but hard to judge. I have not yet removed the intake, but will do so soon and tell you if any lifter clips are missing. This thing is made from just about the hardest metal available. You can not change its shape by hand. I have a hunch the rest of it is inside the engine oil galleries or worse. Complete teardown and X-ray next.

I know I have seen this type of wire somewhere, but can not say where. This wire is used for a specific item .... not a wire brush though. Completely inflexible. ......





Rotor scuff:



Bearings and crank: Light scratches, like from metal debris, hardly any scoring of bearing or crank surfaces, but you judge on that:
#5 main:


#1 main bearing half:

#5 main crank journal


#4 & #8 rod journal:


#4 & #8 rod bearings, lower halfs


Pls. comment if you recognize the wire.

It may look a little like a part of the wire strand that holds the honing stones. I have found honing stones and parts of them in newly bored and honed blocks.

Later.

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  Lem Evans on April 25th 2018, 11:19 pm

68galaxie wrote:Almost looks like a coat hanger wire. I almost lost a piece of a coat hanger wire when setting camshaft timing many years ago when younger.
We used to use the coat hanger wire for a timing indicator when degreeing the cam. The timing cover was off - and the oil pan was on.
Hence the broken wire almost falling into the oil pan.

Not saying this happened to you - just a possibility.


Too small for coat hanger wire,

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  Lem Evans on April 25th 2018, 11:21 pm

Simple...the lifters are missing wire or not.

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  BBFTorino on April 26th 2018, 1:10 am

The Cyclone is bad ass!! Cool

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Re: 474CJ freeze-up

Post  DaveMcLain on April 26th 2018, 8:49 pm

Another possibility might be that it came from a wire brush that was used to clean the block and it just managed to hang around somewhere inside of the engine when it was put together. I know a guy who had that happen one time on a small Ford engine.

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