Not that I'm complaining, but......

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Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  jonkaase on July 3rd 2018, 3:57 pm

Kaase here: There is a thread on here about the AFR, BBF head. I'm sure it's a fine part, and I think the world of the people at AFR. My problem is with the advertising comparison to the P-51. I found the dyno comparison graphs on the other thread, and it took a while to figure where they got the dyno numbers for our heads.

Well.... It was from a 2007 dyno test at WesTech where we sent a stock shortblock P-51 headed 460" to do a magazine article on. It made 700 HP. They had installed both side exhaust gaskets backwards where they blocked off about 25% of the port. Also I think it had 2" headers.

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't feel like it was a fair test. It was only 460" !!!

Almost any 521" P-51 engine with a fair sized cam and 4500 carb will make over 800. A real good 572-598 built right will go over 1000

I just wanted to clear that up.... Kaase

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  cletus66 on July 3rd 2018, 4:17 pm

I remember when that happened.  You either posted it here or told us at the first Big Block Bash.  Not long after that my neighbor, who ports heads,  had somebody complaining about power, so I looked at the exhaust gaskets and they had been on backwards. For the record, he didn't do it...
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  rmcomprandy on July 3rd 2018, 6:12 pm

I have only done it once ... for customer however, an AFR intake manifold port matched to the Kaase P-51 heads works very, VERY well.  But, it does need to be port matched as we originally tried it with the out of the box rectangle ports and it was down a lot ... like 25 lb/ft of torque and 40 horsepower from port matching it and running it again just a couple hours later.

Wish we could have tried a Victor at the time or a Trick Flow but, I don't think I could have run them on that guy's 521 engine.

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  Mike R on July 3rd 2018, 6:32 pm

Thanks Jon, I,m getting bored hearing how the AFR heads are now the ONLY heads that will make any kind of power

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  cletus66 on July 3rd 2018, 7:05 pm

Mike R wrote:Thanks Jon, I,m getting bored hearing how the AFR heads are now the ONLY heads that will make any kind of power


You sound like my neighbor. E.B. Porting. He has my SCJs right now, but he is REAL busy. I'm having them screw together all the parts I got from Lem for a 572. Maybe he'll see this thread and chime in...
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  Lem Evans on July 3rd 2018, 8:02 pm

Mike R wrote:Thanks Jon, I,m getting bored hearing how the AFR heads are now the ONLY heads that will make any kind of power

Just like I am a decade long bored with people saying that the SCJ heads were junk after the P51 came out. But, at the end of the day, most of them haven't done anything so it's was just an opinion.....not a fact.

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  cletus66 on July 3rd 2018, 8:32 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
Mike R wrote:Thanks Jon, I,m getting bored hearing how the AFR heads are now the ONLY heads that will make any kind of power

Just like I am a decade long bored with people saying that the SCJ heads were junk after the P51 came out. But, at the end of the day, most of them haven't done anything so it's was just an opinion.....not a fact.  

I don't know all the facts about that, but I think Jon K. got a raw deal from Ford on the whole SCJ thing. As you all know, he designed them both. I don't know what he can say about it with proprietary info restrictions and all that...
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  Lem Evans on July 3rd 2018, 8:59 pm

cletus66 wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Mike R wrote:Thanks Jon, I,m getting bored hearing how the AFR heads are now the ONLY heads that will make any kind of power

Just like I am a decade long bored with people saying that the SCJ heads were junk after the P51 came out. But, at the end of the day, most of them haven't done anything so it's was just an opinion.....not a fact.  

I don't know all the facts about that, but I think Jon K. got a raw deal from Ford on the whole SCJ thing.   As you all know, he designed them both.  I don't know what he can say about it with proprietary info restrictions and all that...

I did not say a damn thing about who fucked who.

What I am addressing is there are some applications where I'd use the SCJ and there more applications where I would not.

All of this comes from the goofy....."which heads are the best" people asking without any context and the eager parrots say......Thor, P51, A460, Etc. W/O context.

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  cletus66 on July 3rd 2018, 9:07 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
cletus66 wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Mike R wrote:Thanks Jon, I,m getting bored hearing how the AFR heads are now the ONLY heads that will make any kind of power

Just like I am a decade long bored with people saying that the SCJ heads were junk after the P51 came out. But, at the end of the day, most of them haven't done anything so it's was just an opinion.....not a fact.  

I don't know all the facts about that, but I think Jon K. got a raw deal from Ford on the whole SCJ thing.   As you all know, he designed them both.  I don't know what he can say about it with proprietary info restrictions and all that...

I did not say a damn thing about who fucked who.

What I am addressing is there are some applications where I'd use the SCJ and there more applications where I would not.

All of this comes from the goofy....."which heads are the best" people asking without any context and the eager parrots say......Thor, P51, A460, Etc. W/O context.


I agree 100 %. Not trying to stir anything up here...Let me get another beer, and we can discuss a camshaft that idles like a Crown Vic and revs like a chainsaw. Y'all know I want the impossible. Laughing
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  dfree383 on July 3rd 2018, 11:03 pm

It’s all possible we have the technology and live in the land of the free!
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  cletus66 on July 3rd 2018, 11:52 pm

dfree383 wrote:It’s all possible we have the technology and live in the land of the free!


...and the home of the brave !!!
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  BBFTorino on July 4th 2018, 12:12 am

Whoa!!...go easy on the light heartedness around here, it might make a certain 'someone' all upset Rolling Eyes

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  stanger68 on July 4th 2018, 1:28 am

God Bless America! And Praise the Lord for the Big Block Ford!

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  QtrWarrior on July 4th 2018, 5:35 am

BBFTorino wrote:Whoa!!...go easy on the light heartedness around here, it might make a certain 'someone' all upset Rolling Eyes

Who ?? Bruno ?? It's not like he's around to run this place... Suspect
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  Doug Rahn on July 4th 2018, 8:52 am

Glad to see you on here again Jon Cool . Do you have any new projects in the works? I have to tell you my favorite was the 07 Black Mustang with your Boss 429 engine. I look at those photos from time to time and dream.
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  jbozzelle on July 4th 2018, 10:12 am

Jon, that's just Marketing 101 that AFR is doing. Find something remotely relevant to the competition and use it to promote their product.

The desktop dyno racers will always buy the latest and greatest flavor of the week. All the other guys do their research...

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  wayney on July 4th 2018, 12:24 pm

that's funny Lem. A month or 2 ago I had a long discussion on Facebook with a guy that claims that an AFR is the best head for every application . It kinda rubs me the wrong way when people ask or say something is the best without finding out about the application or intended use.

wayne








Lem Evans wrote:
cletus66 wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Mike R wrote:Thanks Jon, I,m getting bored hearing how the AFR heads are now the ONLY heads that will make any kind of power

Just like I am a decade long bored with people saying that the SCJ heads were junk after the P51 came out. But, at the end of the day, most of them haven't done anything so it's was just an opinion.....not a fact.  

I don't know all the facts about that, but I think Jon K. got a raw deal from Ford on the whole SCJ thing.   As you all know, he designed them both.  I don't know what he can say about it with proprietary info restrictions and all that...

I did not say a damn thing about who fucked who.

What I am addressing is there are some applications where I'd use the SCJ and there more applications where I would not.

All of this comes from the goofy....."which heads are the best" people asking without any context and the eager parrots say......Thor, P51, A460, Etc. W/O context.

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  BBFTorino on July 4th 2018, 8:14 pm

QtrWarrior wrote:
BBFTorino wrote:Whoa!!...go easy on the light heartedness around here, it might make a certain 'someone' all upset Rolling Eyes

Who ??  Bruno ??  It's not like he's around to run this place... Suspect
No, Albert Clark

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  gt350hr on July 5th 2018, 3:35 pm

Jon ,
In all honesty there wouldn't BE an aftermarket aluminum Ford 460 head if it weren't for your participation in the original CJ design. NOBODY cared enough to make one , but the original CJ head made everyone sit up and take notice. Blue Thunder was next followed by Edelbrock and others. Along comes AFR 20 + years later and finally decides to make one. When you were busy making the original head , they were still "Chevy only". How about Hot ("Chevy") Rod tests the AFR head with the exhaust gaskets on backwards ?
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  bruno on July 5th 2018, 5:46 pm

BBFTorino wrote:
QtrWarrior wrote:
BBFTorino wrote:Whoa!!...go easy on the light heartedness around here, it might make a certain 'someone' all upset Rolling Eyes

Who ??  Bruno ??  It's not like he's around to run this place... Suspect
No, Albert Clark

Im here everyday ...
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I was wrong!

Post  jonkaase on July 6th 2018, 2:57 pm

I was wrong about the AFR testing on the P-51 heads. I have found out they had a 521 and ran the P-51 heads on it and made 700 HP.
Since the test was done years ago on our 460 at WesTech, I assumed that it was the same test data. It was my mistake.... Kaase

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  jbozzelle on July 6th 2018, 3:46 pm

jonkaase wrote:I was wrong about the AFR testing on the P-51 heads. I have found out they had a 521 and ran the P-51 heads on it and made 700 HP.
Since the test was done years ago on our 460 at WesTech, I assumed that it was the same test data. It was my mistake.... Kaase

That's still weak though. Probably a thrown together combo from "sponsors" to make a running engine instead of a true comparison of "matched" parts for both dyno mules, not just the guy's whose product is getting promoted...

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  AFR_Csperling on July 6th 2018, 8:54 pm

jonkaase wrote:I was wrong about the AFR testing on the P-51 heads. I have found out they had a 521 and ran the P-51 heads on it and made 700 HP.
Since the test was done years ago on our 460 at WesTech, I assumed that it was the same test data. It was my mistake.... Kaase

Thank you for the post Jon.  Also thank you for laying the groundwork for the growth of the BBF industry....as others have mentioned, without you none of us other aftermarkets would be here. For the Big Block Ford enthusiasts, thank you for giving us an opportunity to be a part of your community.  Our goal is to help the BBF community be as competitive as possible and push the envelope for what these machines are capable of (and hopefully beat down some chevys in the process).  Power is all about putting together the right combination and any one of the aftermarket heads we tested is more than capable to produce excellent power numbers using the right combination.

For our test we started our baselines with a 521ci Ford Crate Engine (FMS): Utilizing Super Cobra Jet cylinder heads, Super Cobra Jet intake manifold, custom cam, and 1-7/8" Long Tube Headers.  I wasn't able to find the cam specs or manufacturer unfortunately.

We then tested the three aftermarket heads (with an Edelbrock 2965) back to back to back on the same motor and then averaged the 3 dyno pulls of each cylinder head for the end results.  If you guys have any other questions about our tests let us know!

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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  cletus66 on July 6th 2018, 9:44 pm

AFR_Csperling wrote:
jonkaase wrote:I was wrong about the AFR testing on the P-51 heads. I have found out they had a 521 and ran the P-51 heads on it and made 700 HP.
Since the test was done years ago on our 460 at WesTech, I assumed that it was the same test data. It was my mistake.... Kaase

Thank you for the post Jon.  Also thank you for laying the groundwork for the growth of the BBF industry....as others have mentioned, without you none of us other aftermarkets would be here. For the Big Block Ford enthusiasts, thank you for giving us an opportunity to be a part of your community.  Our goal is to help the BBF community be as competitive as possible and push the envelope for what these machines are capable of (and hopefully beat down some chevys in the process).  Power is all about putting together the right combination and any one of the aftermarket heads we tested is more than capable to produce excellent power numbers using the right combination.

For our test we started our baselines with a 521ci Ford Crate Engine (FMS): Utilizing Super Cobra Jet cylinder heads, Super Cobra Jet intake manifold, custom cam, and 1-7/8" Long Tube Headers.  I wasn't able to find the cam specs or manufacturer unfortunately.

We then tested the three aftermarket heads (with an Edelbrock 2965) back to back to back on the same motor and then averaged the 3 dyno pulls of each cylinder head for the end results.  If you guys have any other questions about our tests let us know!



Thanks for posting. 1-7/8 headers and unknown cam. I'm just pointing out the can of worms that is about to be opened. But seriously, thanks for posting. Cool I can't speak for anyone else, but I appreciate it.
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Re: Not that I'm complaining, but......

Post  jbozzelle on July 6th 2018, 10:04 pm

AFR_Csperling wrote:
jonkaase wrote:I was wrong about the AFR testing on the P-51 heads. I have found out they had a 521 and ran the P-51 heads on it and made 700 HP.
Since the test was done years ago on our 460 at WesTech, I assumed that it was the same test data. It was my mistake.... Kaase

Thank you for the post Jon.  Also thank you for laying the groundwork for the growth of the BBF industry....as others have mentioned, without you none of us other aftermarkets would be here. For the Big Block Ford enthusiasts, thank you for giving us an opportunity to be a part of your community.  Our goal is to help the BBF community be as competitive as possible and push the envelope for what these machines are capable of (and hopefully beat down some chevys in the process).  Power is all about putting together the right combination and any one of the aftermarket heads we tested is more than capable to produce excellent power numbers using the right combination.

For our test we started our baselines with a 521ci Ford Crate Engine (FMS): Utilizing Super Cobra Jet cylinder heads, Super Cobra Jet intake manifold, custom cam, and 1-7/8" Long Tube Headers.  I wasn't able to find the cam specs or manufacturer unfortunately.

We then tested the three aftermarket heads (with an Edelbrock 2965) back to back to back on the same motor and then averaged the 3 dyno pulls of each cylinder head for the end results.  If you guys have any other questions about our tests let us know!

Which heads did you dyno? Edelbrock and SCJ? Did you dyno a P-51 as the third or was the AFR the third set?

And thanks for joining the site. Please stick around and share some knowledge. It's always good to add to the plethora of it that is here already.

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