Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

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Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  foxbody82 on August 28th 2018, 12:24 pm

Starting to gather parts for my engine build for my 79' model DragWeek truck. I am looking at all the offerings for a BBF and consistently see the P51, the AFR, and other CJ offerings brought up. I am looking to build a very simple and reliable engine using shelf parts and maybe even trying to find some deals along the way so the less exotic the better (shelf piston options, affordable valvetrain, readily available exhaust system (ford flange), etc...). Will be using a D0ve or D1ve block for a base and going with something in the 500-521 range. Looking to push a 4000 lb. truck into the 10.90's and be able to drive around on pump gas. What are some good cylinder heads that fit the above description and why would you pick one over the other (reminding you I am looking for a budget friendly head as well.)


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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  dfree383 on August 28th 2018, 12:57 pm

I'd diffidently build it bigger than a 521, Displacement = Torque and Torque moves weight.
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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  foxbody82 on August 28th 2018, 2:18 pm

I agree that it could be a larger displacement, but I want to go as easy on the block as I can and try to keep the best rod angle I can. So that is why I am looking into a shorter stroke with a larger bore versus a longer stroke with the larger bore.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  away on August 28th 2018, 2:23 pm

Build an A Head engine hands down for the win!
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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Paul Kane on August 28th 2018, 4:15 pm

If budget heads are what you’re after then ported iron could meet your needs in a big cube engine.  And be the most maintenance free. Your biggest issue will be rear wheel traction.   Check your messages for one option I offered you.
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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  bruno on August 28th 2018, 4:41 pm

Off topic , that is one beautiful truck !!
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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Lem Evans on August 28th 2018, 5:46 pm

foxbody82 wrote:I agree that it could be a larger displacement, but I want to go as easy on the block as I can and try to keep the best rod angle I can. So that is why I am looking into a shorter stroke with a larger bore versus a longer stroke with the larger bore.

So, how much power u think it'll take to meet you goal. What type of cam you thinking?

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Lem Evans on August 28th 2018, 5:46 pm

bruno wrote:Off topic , that is one beautiful truck !!

For sure!!

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  foxbody82 on August 28th 2018, 5:54 pm

Thanks for some of the info and compliments guys, definitely want to go aluminum headed for weight reasons and I know they can be had for reasonable prices and still getting a good product. Trying to avoid the procomp level stuff. I have also seen the A heads for sale for a good price and they seem to perform very well.

The rendering helped a ton in making sure the truck was how I wanted it before I started seeing the UPS driver on a weekly or daily basis. The truck is still in the early stages of the build, but it is currently getting all the chassis goodies from Calvert and frame has been taken down to metal and painted. As soon as the mono leafs and caltracs come in she will be back on the ground and ready to go to paint prison for a while which gives me time to get this motor lined out.

I think it will take roughly 700 at the flywheel to achieve the goal with room to spare if weight stays 4000 or less. I was thinking a very mild solid roller, but wouldn't be against a hydraulic set up to keep it easy on the valvetrain. I know it is a different ball game, but I know the small block guys are having good luck with the tight lash solid rollers on the street.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  rmcomprandy on August 28th 2018, 6:07 pm

foxbody82 wrote:Thanks for some of the info and compliments guys, definitely want to go aluminum headed for weight reasons and I know they can be had for reasonable prices and still getting a good product. Trying to avoid the procomp level stuff. I have also seen the A heads for sale for a good price and they seem to perform very well.

The rendering helped a ton in making sure the truck was how I wanted it before I started seeing the UPS driver on a weekly or daily basis. The truck is still in the early stages of the build, but it is currently getting all the chassis goodies from Calvert and frame has been taken down to metal and painted. As soon as the mono leafs and caltracs come in she will be back on the ground and ready to go to paint prison for a while which gives me time to get this motor lined out.

I think it will take roughly 700 at the flywheel to achieve the goal with room to spare if weight stays 4000 or less. I was thinking a very mild solid roller, but wouldn't be against a hydraulic set up to keep it easy on the valvetrain. I know it is a different ball game, but I know the small block guys are having good luck with the tight lash solid rollers on the street.

I would base the engine on something similar to what FRPP offered as a standard bore 514 Crate engine; (521 cubic inches at .030" oversize bore).

There are many kits in the marketplace with a 4.300" stroke crankshaft, 6.700" length 4340 rod and a dished forged piston for the FRPP SCJ or P-51 cylinder heads.

It is almost to easy.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Lem Evans on August 28th 2018, 7:58 pm

There are several cylinder head avenues to 700 and beyond....hence Randy's "easy" statement.

I wouldn't be as concerned about the rod angle as I would about what is pulled out of the bore at BDC. A D9 truck block or an A460 with their longer cylinders would be the way to go.  

4.300" crank , 6.800" rod and one of the D9/A460 blocks would be good in that regard.

"Big bore" was mentioned. A guy ain't gonna get what is considered a big bore w/o an after market block. Something like 4.560"x4.300"x6.800" would be a smoking deal. Lots of HP and more tq. than the law allows. At that point there'd be no reason to push the cam or compression ratio.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  foxbody82 on August 28th 2018, 10:11 pm

I should have explained myself a little better. I was saying I would rather get to my desired cubic inch by boring as much as I could without sacrificing wall thickness and turning it a little more rather than putting a huge stroke in it. This will be on 275's most of the time so I need something that will be less likely to overpower the truck or make me have to pull timing to get it to leave. I was looking into d0ve and d1ve blocks for their strength, but would the additional cylinder length be worth going the D9 route? As far as the "easy" statement, which head will do it the easiest with room to grow? I assume the P-51 is going to be the answer, but before I pull the trigger on that set up I am interested in more budget friendly heads as it appears 700 out of these motors are pretty common with basic stuff.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  69F100 on August 29th 2018, 8:58 pm

Lem Evans wrote:There are several cylinder head avenues to 700 and beyond....hence Randy's "easy" statement.

I wouldn't be as concerned about the rod angle as I would about what is pulled out of the bore at BDC. A D9 truck block or an A460 with their longer cylinders would be the way to go.  

4.300" crank , 6.800" rod and one of the D9/A460 blocks would be good in that regard.

"Big bore" was mentioned. A guy ain't gonna get what is considered a big bore w/o an after market block. Something like 4.560"x4.300"x6.800" would be a smoking deal. Lots of HP and more tq. than the law allows. At that point there'd be no reason to push the cam or compression ratio.


When I built my 552 I was trying to decide on what block I wanted to use until this was explained to me
I went with my d9 block instead of my c9 69 model block for the longer cylinder to help keep more of the piston in the hole at BDC
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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  TravisRice on September 1st 2018, 12:27 pm

Just my opinion, but I'd go with the 4.300 × 6.700 rod deal in a D9 block if your driving the thing a lot hence the Drag Week statement. With the 6.700 rod you dont need the oil ring support rail and it keeps the ring pack out of the wrist pin bore. Not that there is anything wrong with the 6.800 rod combo, it may survive fine and last 30,000 miles i really dont know. Just something I would consider if I were building it for myself.

Real nice truck rendering as well. Very cool.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  rmcomprandy on September 1st 2018, 7:43 pm

TravisRice wrote:Just my opinion, but I'd go with the 4.300 × 6.700 rod deal in a D9 block if your driving the thing a lot hence the Drag Week statement. With the 6.700 rod you dont need the oil ring support rail and it keeps the ring pack out of the wrist pin bore. Not that there is anything wrong with the 6.800 rod combo, it may survive fine and last 30,000 miles i really dont know. Just something I would consider if I were building it for myself.

Real nice truck rendering as well. Very cool.

That Ford crate engine even uses a shorter 6.605" rod length in a D9 block with that 4.300" stroke so, a 6.700" would present no issue at all.

A 6.800" rod length would use a 1.350" compression height piston and the pin is not in the oil ring either.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Colt Macara on September 1st 2018, 8:43 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
TravisRice wrote:Just my opinion, but I'd go with the 4.300 × 6.700 rod deal in a D9 block if your driving the thing a lot hence the Drag Week statement. With the 6.700 rod you dont need the oil ring support rail and it keeps the ring pack out of the wrist pin bore. Not that there is anything wrong with the 6.800 rod combo, it may survive fine and last 30,000 miles i really dont know. Just something I would consider if I were building it for myself.

Real nice truck rendering as well. Very cool.

That Ford crate engine even uses a shorter 6.605" rod length in a D9 block with that 4.300" stroke so, a 6.700" would present no issue at all.

A 6.800" rod length would use a 1.350" compression height piston and the pin is not in the oil ring either.

FWIW The Scat 521... 4.300 stroke comes with a 6.800 rod. Mahle piston 1.350 CH in a 38cc dish or 3cc flattop.
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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  TravisRice on September 1st 2018, 9:08 pm

rmcomprandy wrote:
TravisRice wrote:Just my opinion, but I'd go with the 4.300 × 6.700 rod deal in a D9 block if your driving the thing a lot hence the Drag Week statement. With the 6.700 rod you dont need the oil ring support rail and it keeps the ring pack out of the wrist pin bore. Not that there is anything wrong with the 6.800 rod combo, it may survive fine and last 30,000 miles i really dont know. Just something I would consider if I were building it for myself.

Real nice truck rendering as well. Very cool.

That Ford crate engine even uses a shorter 6.605" rod length in a D9 block with that 4.300" stroke so, a 6.700" would present no issue at all.

A 6.800" rod length would use a 1.350" compression height piston and the pin is not in the oil ring either.

Your right randy. I was thinking of the 4.500 instead of the 4.300 stroke.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Rickytx630 on September 2nd 2018, 9:25 pm

514 wouldnt be too bad, i know you said pump gas but, my 514 ( dove block .080 over, 4.150 stroke and 6.800 rod) with kaase's p51 heads moved my backhalf mustang in the 8.8x's at 3022lbs with me in it after pass, im running 116 so its alittle different but itll give you an idea, or if you dont want to kill the block, id go .030 over with a 4.50 stroke and 6.800 rod, its 545ci and gives u room to grow cubic inch wise when needed, try to find a set of cj heads too.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Colt Macara on September 2nd 2018, 10:56 pm

Rickytx630 wrote:514 wouldnt be too bad, i know you said pump gas but, my 514 ( dove block .080 over, 4.150 stroke and 6.800 rod) with kaase's p51 heads moved my backhalf mustang in the 8.8x's at 3022lbs with me in it after pass, im running 116 so its alittle different but itll give you an idea, or if you dont want to kill the block, id go .030 over with a 4.50 stroke and 6.800 rod, its 545ci and gives u room to grow cubic inch wise when needed, try to find a set of cj heads too.

What would be the CH of that piston, the 545 with a 6.800 rod? The Mahle piston uses the same CH on the 4.3 and the 4.5 stroke but the 545 then uses the 6.700 rod length. At least according to the Mahle catalog.
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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  DanE on September 3rd 2018, 10:55 am

One half of 4.5" stroke equals------------2.25"
Rod length center to center---------------6.80"
CH of piston--------------------------------1.25"
_______________________________________
Block deck height-------------------------10.30"

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  jbozzelle on September 3rd 2018, 9:28 pm

If you have an unlimited budget then buy an A460 block and build a 562 like Lem mentioned and it'll live happily after after.

If you're on a tighter budget then a D9 block/4.3 deal will keep it happy enough.

If it was me I'd build a pump gas 604, use some AFR, P51 or TFS 325s and be done with it... That would make the torque to push that sled down the road... No need for A460 heads IMO...


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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Paul Kane on September 4th 2018, 11:22 am

This “D9TE block mandate” has really gotten out of hand.  Years ago the D9 used to be the last choice block revision people would utlilize, and because of that there might still be more 6.700”-rodded 557s in D1VE & earlier blocks running just fine than there are in D9TE blocks.  Sure the longer cylinder advantage of the D9TE over the early blocks is there, but just build based on whichever block is being utilized and you’ll be fine.

And now people feel it’s beneficial for a 6.800” rod 4.3 Stroke combo?  At BDC, the piston pin in a 4.3 stroke 6.8 rod combo is only 0.030” lower in the bore than a stock 460.

The D9TE block has its advantages just as a D0VE block has its own, etc. Let’s not over-elevate its unique feature to one of a night-and-day difference for every application, or a “must have.”
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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Lem Evans on September 4th 2018, 12:19 pm

It's a shame Ford didn't put a longer rod in the 460 engines.

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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Curt on September 4th 2018, 1:06 pm

Lem Evans wrote:It's a shame Ford didn't put a longer rod in.

That's what she said!
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Re: Cylinder Head for 500+ ci.

Post  Lem Evans on September 4th 2018, 2:41 pm

Curt wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:It's a shame Ford didn't put a longer rod in.

That's what she said!

Be nice Laughing

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