Lifter Pump Up?

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Post  1EFF100 on November 25th 2019, 9:23 am

Hey guys. Just installed a rebuilt 466 in my F-250 and am having some weird issues.
Not a fancy engine at all. .030 cast builder pistons, stock truck rods with ARP bolts, stock crank, high volume oil pump that was in my other engine. Balanced.
370 cylinder heads reworked with stock sized base 429/460 valves, single springs with damper, some port cleanup.  Non-adjustable bolt-down stock rockers and push rods are from my previous engine and look to be stock length.
Bought these heads from Paul Kane. Not sure what spec the springs are but they look like crane or comp. Maybe Paul will chime in here.
Camshaft is a small hydraulic custom from Randy Malik. Parts house lifters.
Stock intake also from Paul, reworked a bit in the plenum area right below the carb.

Cam break-in went smooth, a lifter clacked for a couple seconds about half way through but no other issues. 2000 RPM for 30 minutes. Used Comp break-in juice and 15/40 diesel oil.

Now to the issue. A lifter will make a bunch of noise (clack) intermittently and when that happens, the engine drops a cylinder--misfires.
Also if you try to rev it up when this happens, it pops and bangs and sneezes back through the carb, misfiring all over the place.
Sometimes it happens at 2000 RPM, sometimes 1500, 2500, 3000.

Could I have like one bad lifter (has happened to me before with new lifters) and maybe with the thicker oil and high volume pump is either making the lifters go solid or overpowering the valve springs?

I have run a much more aggressive camshaft of both duration and lift with stock springs and never run into this problem.

Or maybe ignition related? New cap, rotor, wires and plugs. However it did the same thing prior to the cap; rotor, and wires.

Thanks for any help on this.
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Post  rmcomprandy on November 25th 2019, 10:45 am

Something in or on the Exhaust side is probably going amiss ... I hope it is not a cam lobe.

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Post  1EFF100 on November 25th 2019, 11:09 am

rmcomprandy wrote:Something in or on the Exhaust side is probably going amiss ... I hope it is not a cam lobe.
Thanks Randy, me too.

Guess I'll start pulling it apart today after work and we'll find out.
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Post  1EFF100 on November 25th 2019, 12:31 pm

Okay, so number 6 is the offending cylinder.
Fired it up and no lifter noise. Sounded great. Drove a ways up the road staying below 3000 RPM, ran well, no lifter noise.
Decided to get into it a little and boom, 2800, lifter clatter, missing, popping, sneezing through the carb.
Disconnected number 6 plug wire and drove up the road again. No popping or carrying on even when the lifter started clattering again. Ran clean and pulled strong.

So.....Randy, I think you're correct in the exhaust side problem. I was kinda thinking that myself, having run into flat cams in GM inboard boat engines.

I really, REALLY hope it's just a bad lifter. If not, and it is a lobe, I'm gonna Crying or Very sad  .
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Post  1EFF100 on November 25th 2019, 7:38 pm

Time to Crying or Very sad  it's a lobe. Mad
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Post  BBFTorino on November 26th 2019, 12:33 am

Use a long magnet and reach down there and pull those two lifters out and inspect.

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Post  1EFF100 on November 26th 2019, 8:44 am

BBFTorino wrote:Use a long magnet and reach down there and pull those two lifters out and inspect.
Already pulled the intake--it's a bad lobe.
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Post  JBR-3 on November 26th 2019, 10:59 am

What are these cams made out of these days, cream cheese ?

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Post  1EFF100 on November 26th 2019, 11:12 am

JBR-3 wrote:What are these cams made out of these days, cream cheese ?

I know, right? Well, I've been pretty fortunate over the years to never have a cam failure during break-in.
I did have a Crower fail once from coil bind on all of the exhausts but I ran the springs they recommended for their cam.
Now, a Lunati failure. Oh well, I guess it was bound to happen sometime.

I would like to know what happened here, though. I did everything right--or so I thought. Smile
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Post  Paul Kane on November 26th 2019, 4:42 pm

Just an FYI--the heads actually have 2.08"/1.725" valves.

Those heads were on my F250 engine which I built for towing and for fuel economy. As it was to basically serve as a low rpm engine (ie, not a street/strip engine) and in the interest of fuel economy, I ran a set of relatively light valve springs which were only about 10% greater than stock spec--just 90-95 lbs of seat pressure. And I ran them with a 208/213@050 camshaft. There is no way the valve springs were too much for a mild hydraulic cam.

Based on your description of the symptoms, I think you had a defective hydraulic lifter which took out its respective lobe from the get-go. At least that how it sounds from over here.

Its a bummer, but it does happen....
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Post  1EFF100 on November 26th 2019, 5:11 pm

Paul Kane wrote:Just an FYI--the heads actually have 2.08"/1.725" valves.

Those heads were on my F250 engine which I built for towing and for fuel economy. As it was to basically serve as a low rpm engine (ie, not a street/strip engine) and in the interest of fuel economy, I ran a set of relatively light valve springs which were only about 10% greater than stock spec--just 90-95 lbs of seat pressure. And I ran them with a 208/213@050 camshaft. There is no way the valve springs were too much for a mild hydraulic cam.

Based on your description of the symptoms, I think you had a defective hydraulic lifter which took out its respective lobe from the get-go. At least that how it sounds from over here.

Its a bummer, but it does happen....
Hi Paul, thanks for chiming in.
I wasn't insinuating your valve springs had anything to do with the cam lobe damage. I was actually hoping the springs were too light and I may have been getting valve float. The way it was running sounded like valve float to me. Was hoping for that and just a collapsed lifter.

On the springs, do you recall how much lift they can tolerate?

I'm scrapping the truck. Gonna remove the engine, go to a more aggressive cam that I removed out of my old engine, and install this one into my Cougar.
The Cougar was going to get a new engine when the F-250 was done anyhow only now I don't have to build another one. Very Happy
There's always a bright side.
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Post  Paul Kane on November 26th 2019, 8:39 pm

1EFF100 wrote:
Paul Kane wrote:Just an FYI--the heads actually have 2.08"/1.725" valves.

Those heads were on my F250 engine which I built for towing and for fuel economy. As it was to basically serve as a low rpm engine (ie, not a street/strip engine) and in the interest of fuel economy, I ran a set of relatively light valve springs which were only about 10% greater than stock spec--just 90-95 lbs of seat pressure. And I ran them with a 208/213@050 camshaft. There is no way the valve springs were too much for a mild hydraulic cam.

Based on your description of the symptoms, I think you had a defective hydraulic lifter which took out its respective lobe from the get-go. At least that how it sounds from over here.

Its a bummer, but it does happen....
Hi Paul, thanks for chiming in.
I wasn't insinuating your valve springs had anything to do with the cam lobe damage. I was actually hoping the springs were too light and I may have been getting valve float. The way it was running sounded like valve float to me. Was hoping for that and just a collapsed lifter.

On the springs, do you recall how much lift they can tolerate?

I'm scrapping the truck. Gonna remove the engine, go to a more aggressive cam that I removed out of my old engine, and install this one into my Cougar.
The Cougar was going to get a new engine when the F-250 was done anyhow only now I don't have to build another one. Very Happy
There's always a bright side.
I don't think you're insinuating anything. Smile

The engine I originally built with those heads had 0.535" lift at the valve and it did see 5000 rpm and triple digit speeds (once or twice for personal proof's sake). So I don't think you experienced a valve spring issue as you never ran your engine past 3000 rpm or so.

That being said, in your application I do think you should step up to more spring with even a similar cam (and certainly with anything bigger). Because the engine combination I built was exactly what I wanted for my personal use, not necesarily something I would have sent out the door precisely as built.

In regards to max lift capability, etc: Sorry but my notes on that engine were in a folder that went to the customer who purchased the short block (freshened) with newly installed ported D0VE heads, so I can't tell you about the original 370 head's max lift, open pressure, coil bind, etc with the springs that are on them. Fortunately you can easily test one. But knowing I made them super light for my personal application, I can tell you that you should get more spring for your engine build.
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Post  1EFF100 on November 26th 2019, 8:50 pm

Paul Kane wrote:
1EFF100 wrote:
Paul Kane wrote:Just an FYI--the heads actually have 2.08"/1.725" valves.

Those heads were on my F250 engine which I built for towing and for fuel economy. As it was to basically serve as a low rpm engine (ie, not a street/strip engine) and in the interest of fuel economy, I ran a set of relatively light valve springs which were only about 10% greater than stock spec--just 90-95 lbs of seat pressure. And I ran them with a 208/213@050 camshaft. There is no way the valve springs were too much for a mild hydraulic cam.

Based on your description of the symptoms, I think you had a defective hydraulic lifter which took out its respective lobe from the get-go. At least that how it sounds from over here.

Its a bummer, but it does happen....
Hi Paul, thanks for chiming in.
I wasn't insinuating your valve springs had anything to do with the cam lobe damage. I was actually hoping the springs were too light and I may have been getting valve float. The way it was running sounded like valve float to me. Was hoping for that and just a collapsed lifter.

On the springs, do you recall how much lift they can tolerate?

I'm scrapping the truck. Gonna remove the engine, go to a more aggressive cam that I removed out of my old engine, and install this one into my Cougar.
The Cougar was going to get a new engine when the F-250 was done anyhow only now I don't have to build another one. Very Happy
There's always a bright side.
I don't think you're insinuating anything. Smile

The engine I originally built with those heads had 0.535" lift at the valve and it did see 5000 rpm and triple digit speeds (once or twice for personal proof's sake). So I don't think you experienced a valve spring issue as you never ran your engine past 3000 rpm or so.

That being said, in your application I do think you should step up to more spring with even a similar cam (and certainly with anything bigger). Because the engine combination I built was exactly what I wanted for my personal use, not necesarily something I would have sent out the door precisely as built.

In regards to max lift capability, etc: Sorry but my notes on that engine were in a folder that went to the customer who purchased the short block (freshened) with newly installed ported D0VE heads, so I can't tell you about the original 370 head's max lift, open pressure, coil bind, etc with the springs that are on them. Fortunately you can easily test one. But knowing I made them super light for my personal application, I can tell you that you should get more spring for your engine build.
Okay, will do. Thanks again.
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Post  BBFTorino on November 27th 2019, 1:10 am

A few years ago, the market was flooded with cheap Chinese made lifters (and re-boxed into popular manufacturers packages) , and they were inferior products. They did not have the proper heat treatment on the lifter body, and so they were "soft", and many of them would get chewed up by the cam.
There were a lot of recalls on them, and most big name companies promptly pulled them from their inventory. But I'm sure they did'nt get them all.
This sounds like the case here.
Been thru the same thing myself!
Now, most big cam companies offer flat tappet lifters with a small lazer cut hole on the face for direct pressure oiling between the cam lobe and lifter face. I think it is the best way to go for any flat tappet setup....even a very mild/stock cam.

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