Ladder Bar vs. S/S vs. 4 Link ??

bruno wrote:WHICH SUSPENSION HAS THE ADVANTAGE ???

IT JUST DEPE.... ....[click, delete, delete, delete].... It just depends, there are too many variables to claim one is the "best" 100% of the time. Jon makes a good point about the "user" playing a part in the equation. Having massive amounts of adjustability can be a waste if the owner is a "set it & forget it" or a "it's close enough" kind of racer.


I guess a suspension "type" break down would go something like this........

Aftermarket 4-links:.....

Top tier - ultimate "PRO" style 4-links (super tall 1/4" 'moly housing & chassis brackets, 1 1/4" to 1 3/8" OD 'moly links, tons of 5/8 and-or 1/2 holes) = highest initial cost, most adjustability, strongest setup.

Middle tier - "Sportsman" 4-links (tall 3/16" to 1/4" ms or 'moly housing & chassis brackets, 1" DOM ms direct threaded or 1 1/4" OD 'moly links, usually has many 5/8" holes) = lower initial cost, lower adjustability, lower strength.

Bottom tier - "bracket/pro street" 4-links (short 3/16" ms housing & chassis brackets, 1" DOM ms direct threaded links, could have limited number of 5/8" to 3/4" holes) = lowest initial cost, lowest adjustability, lowest strength.

Shit tier - "street rod" 4-links ("shit" as far as drag racing is concerned). Pretty much useless in a drag car. Their parallel (or close to parallel) upper/lower links make for a smooth ride on the street, but parallel bars mean little or no I/C point to adjust.


Ladder bars........

Ultra top tier - Two newer designs of ladder bars. One design is much the same as the "top tier" bars, but with taller "4-link style" housing brackets (the bars & taller bracket form a larger "triangle" to carry more loading than a normal bar). And the other design uses a similar 4-link style housing bracket. But at the front the bars aren't welded together, they are joined together by brackets & a rod-end. A lot of people are calling this design a "triple adjustable" ladder bar.

Top tier - "Pro" double adjustable ladder bars. 1/4" 360* housing brackets, bigger 1 1/4" tubing , top rear rod-end hole is directly above/inline with the lower hole for more adjustability before binding, some have the top/bottom rear rod-end thread centers on the same axis again for more adjustability before binding.

Middle tier - "Sportsman" double adjustable ladder bars. 1/4" 360* or 180* housing brackets, 1" DOM direct thread or 1 1/4" tubing , top rear rod-end hole is directly above/inline with the lower hole for more adjustability before binding.

Bottom tier "Basic" double adjustable ladder bar. 180* housing brackets, 1" DOM direct thread tubing, top/bottom rear holes NOT in line causing less adjustability before binding happens.

Shit tier - any common "single adjustable" ladder bar. Yes they can work OK, but are a pain to adjust since they must be removed from the brackets/car to adjust them.



Stock suspension.......

See "can of worms"



To further "muddy the waters" might as well mention single bar "torque arms", Pro Mod "swing arms", dragster "swing arms" (not even close to being the same thing), the dragster setups that have the shock & pivot points right behind the driver, "rocker arm" setups that mount the shocks to the anti-roll via a rocker arm looking tubular assembly, the "street rod" ladder bars that point inward, the NASCAR style bars that point inward, street & drag 3-links (2 bottom bars & 1 top bar), etc, etc, etc........

the 4link adjustment's tend to get most folks in over their head,so i run ladder bars. if it aint got W's it dont count anyway!

I believe up to a certain power level it could be a toss up between a 4-link or ladderbar. Ladderbar may even have an advantage at a certain power level. But you get to a really high hp level the 4-link should have the advantage in the fact it is so adjustable to use the power more efficiently. You don't see Pro Mods running ladderbars.

BigDave65 wrote:You don't see Pro Mods running ladderbars.

Well you kinda do see a "cousin" of the ladder bar in Pro Mod since the PM swing arm stuff is really in effect 2 bigger-longer ladder bars (on steroids ) joined together.

i think a ladder bar is every bit as good as a 4link in a "door car".the 4link can work better for some becouse it's more adjustable.the only problem "I"have ever had with ladder bar's is hooking too hard.it's harder to figure out how to get enough bite out of ladderbar's in a faster car.the 4link has it over the ladderbar on adjustment,but thats it.and a ladderbar setup dont need a dam antiroll bar.

cool40 wrote:i think a ladder bar is every bit as good as a 4link in a "door car"

One big drawback to a ladder bar setup in a full chassis car is the packaging problem. If your looking to have a super low slung full chassis car with the driver sitting back against the wheel tubs and having a ton of leg room even with a bunch of engine setback, your out of luck with a normal ladder bar setup. If you don't mind the higher ride height, or less leg room, the ladder bar can be very usable in a lot of full chassis cars.

DILLIGASDAVE wrote:

cool40 wrote:i think a ladder bar is every bit as good as a 4link in a "door car"

One big drawback to a ladder bar setup in a full chassis car is the packaging problem. If your looking to have a super low slung full chassis car with the driver sitting back against the wheel tubs and having a ton of leg room even with a bunch of engine setback, your out of luck with a normal ladder bar setup. If you don't mind the higher ride height, or less leg room, the ladder bar can be very usable in a lot of full chassis cars.

good point,i'm kinda short so i never thought of it like that.

The thing I hate about ladder bars is they only have 3 contact points, and on the 4 link they have 4 contact points...
on ladder bars the front joint takes all the load, on the 4 link the upper links take the brunt of the load.... Plus I like the Idea of spreading the load....

Randy

The mustang stock style 4 link is very good. The trick is to get the instant center length and height correct along with using good DA shocks. Many of the radial cars have gone 1 teens, you just need to work with it.

There are a few promods and outlaw 10.5 cars running swingarms, just to throw something else out there.

Swingarm pic

Lets not forget to mention soild mounted stuff in hard tail dragsters and such..... They work to.

David Willingham wrote:There are a few promods and outlaw 10.5 cars running swingarms, just to throw something else out there.

Swingarm pic

The swing arm & chassis layout in that pic is very similar to how the Auzzy chassis builder Murry Anderson did his swing arm stuff in the past. The main crossmember sweeping waaaay back to meet the main hoop base is almost the same. I think one slight difference is Anderson's setup looks to have the arm a little longer & a little narrower than what's in this pic. Driver seating position might not be exactly the same since Anderson's setup looks to have the driver sitting reclined quite a bit to make room for the swing arm behind the driver's butt (in the PM's anyway).

The PM 37 coupe swing arm car that Jim Oddy had was a different layout. It had the arm running up-inside the chassis so the driver actually sat beside the swing arm instead of in front of it. Oddy originally ordered just the swing arm assembly & rear housing from Anderson & had it shipped to the states. Then G-Force race cars (if I remember correctly it was G-Force) is the shop that took the swing arm & built their own chassis design around it.

If the stories are true Jim Oddy was able to kept the fact that his car had a swing arm a secrete for around two years before someone finally caught on to what they were doing.

[quote="cool40"]i think a ladder bar is every bit as good as a 4link in a "door car".the 4link can work better for some becouse it's more adjustable.the only problem "I"have ever had with ladder bar's is hooking too hard.it's harder to figure out how to get enough bite out of ladderbar's in a faster car.the 4link has it over the ladderbar on adjustment,but thats it.and a ladderbar setup dont need a dam antiroll bar. [/quote]


I agree to a point. I have not seen anyone mention wheelbase. A shorter car may have the advantage with the ladder bar, yes or no depending on the install. Cars like I run, big long land yachts have a hard time gettting a ladder bar to get close on the IC window you need to be in. My stuff I ran the double adj. 36" long bars. Short of cutting the back half clean off and starting over with the 4 link. A big problem too now a days is that A LOT of cars start out as street/strip and progressivley turn into all strip wether we want to admit it or not. Thats how I started on the green 65. Looking to run some 11.99's, street friendly ........blah blah blah ...... First trip to the track and 10.89's .......... then it was on. Progressed into a street looking race car. Eventually ran 9.20's and could have been a good bit faster if it would have started out as a purpose built racecar, not a street car turned race car.

Travis

TravisRice wrote:A LOT of cars start out as street/strip and progressivley turn into all strip wether we want to admit it or not............................could have been a good bit faster if it would have started out as a purpose built racecar, not a street car turned race car.

That is a good point.

You do see a bunch of "up-grading". A "stock frame" street car later converted to a mini-tub & cage, or a mini-tub later converted to a back-half, or a back-half later converted into a full chassis car. And while an up-graded car might work OK, they are usually never laid out as 100% efficiently as they could have been (such as driver/engine placement, lightest "finished" weight possible, ride height choices, etc, etc) vs selling the car as-is & starting over with a fresh body shell.

Hey, I fall into this category........