598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  138 on April 20th 2011, 4:15 pm

chappy89 wrote:
lghting94 wrote:Ok that clears it up some thank you Charlie and Chappy. I still dont understand why T&D would make everyone that wanted a set of one peice stands to send them the heads to make them off of but oh well it is their business and their funds doing the devolopment.

Im with you on that. I guess they developed the original system and didn't make any drawings or keep the head they used to design their setup. So anytime someone wants one they have to send in their head. U would think after the first time they did it they would make drawings or something. Hell, I would let them use my head as a template if they would give me a little something off the price. LOL.

I would say each brand of heads varies a little bit, and when charging upwards of 1500 dollars for a custom set-up they wanna make sure its right for each application...I would have no problem sending my heads out to them to make sure I got something that was specific, done right and with no mods needed after paying that kinda cash


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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  chappy89 on April 20th 2011, 4:16 pm

138 wrote:
chappy89 wrote:
lghting94 wrote:Ok that clears it up some thank you Charlie and Chappy. I still dont understand why T&D would make everyone that wanted a set of one peice stands to send them the heads to make them off of but oh well it is their business and their funds doing the devolopment.

Im with you on that. I guess they developed the original system and didn't make any drawings or keep the head they used to design their setup. So anytime someone wants one they have to send in their head. U would think after the first time they did it they would make drawings or something. Hell, I would let them use my head as a template if they would give me a little something off the price. LOL.

I would sat each brand of heads varies a lit5tle bit, and when charging upwards of 1500 dollars for a custom set-up they wanna make sure its right for each application...I would have no problem sending my heads out to them to make sure I got something that was specific, done right and with no mods needed after paying that kinda cash

Me either. That's why I am going to send them. I want to get this right this time. I am tired of being broken. LOL.

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  138 on April 20th 2011, 4:31 pm

chappy89 wrote:
138 wrote:
the Coug wrote:This is the Exact reason I do not like Shaft rockers for heads that are set up for STUDS on shaft setup it put all the stress on the individual stud mounts, when you use studs and a girdle it spreads it among all 8 studs Shocked and another thiing is Heli Coils are junk.......


I have fixed more Heli coils than not....because they are a bandaid fix....

and that theory you provided awhile back in another pissing match thread is why I went with that exact set-up....


JMHO
Randy

and that theory you provided awhile back in another pissing match thread is why I went with that exact set-up.... cheers

I can tell you with certainty that there is no rocker/stud girdle setup that withstand the kind of pressures and rpm that my motor sees. I ran a similar setup on a small block turbo street car that turned around 7800 rpm and made about 1200 HP, and I broke several Crane Gold Race rocker arms which caused all kinds of bent valves. I will never run rocker/girdle setups for high rpm/big power combos.

We turn this motor to 9000 rpm, and it will go to 10K if I wanted it to. Our springs have 400#'s on the seat and over 1200#'s open. Plus throw in 35#'s of boost from twin 88's on the exhaust side...and you have a recipe for disaster for a rocker/girdle setup. Maybe others have tried it and been successful...but Im not going to risk my 40K investment. That's why Im a little pissed that T&D didn't make me aware that they could do this when I bought the rockers...and Kaase didn't make me aware either. 6 months later and 2 times damaging parts at the track, and now I find out about this. Makes me want to quit racing...but I love the rush too much.




agreed... but unless I was building a class specific motor, with those kinda spring pressures I would go with the C heads or something else better suited for those types of pressures and designed for a shaft rocker set-up


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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  DanH on April 20th 2011, 4:34 pm

the one peice intake stand doesnt address exhaust problem . . still must get a soild welded exhaust stand to the intake stand . plus the longer bolts

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  138 on April 20th 2011, 5:26 pm

I noticed that the A heads I just received have a larger square stud boss/mounting pad as opposed to the round ones seen in all the pictures available on the net...the larger square version would seem to be better suited for building a one piece shaft rocker stand platform around.





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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2011, 6:19 pm

The beefier stud bosses are a result of a suggestion some guys in Ky. made.
The guys at TFS are great to work with.

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  138 on April 20th 2011, 6:33 pm

Lem Evans wrote:The beefier stud bosses are a result of a suggestion some guys in Ky. made.
The guys at TFS are great to work with.

thems some pretty smart guys down there... study cheers

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2011, 6:50 pm

Good eye.......most people would not have noticed the bigger bosses.


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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2011, 6:59 pm

DanH wrote:the one peice intake stand doesnt address exhaust problem . . still must get a soild welded exhaust stand to the intake stand . plus the longer bolts
I.M.O. it does address the issue..... albeit not perfectly. In lieu of one solid bar I'd rather have a solid welded exh. to intake sub plate than a welded 1/4" 'bridge'.

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  c.evans on April 20th 2011, 8:45 pm

138,

The TFS A-460-18 bolt heads are the very latest BBF 3X castings. They are the ones with the square rocker pads. So I had TFS (as Lem says, the TFS guys are great to work with) send one of the BBF 3X castings down to W.W. Engineering and asked them to make us a one piece rocker stand.

As already mentioned, the intake stand is one piece and the four exhaust stands butt up against it. It's just due the the complicated logistics of the different cant angles, the top row of head bolts, the exhaust pushrod slots, and a few other factors as to why it can't all be a one piece stand. However, at the end of the day, it will be a better piece and any good engine builder can weld the four exhaust stands to the one intake stand which runs the length of the head,,,,, AFTER proper rocker arm geometry has been established.

Hope this helps,

Charlie

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  138 on April 20th 2011, 8:51 pm

gotcha...thanks again Wink

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  DanH on April 20th 2011, 9:40 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
DanH wrote:the one peice intake stand doesnt address exhaust problem . . still must get a soild welded exhaust stand to the intake stand . plus the longer bolts
I.M.O. it does address the issue..... albeit not perfectly. In lieu of one solid bar I'd rather have a solid welded exh. to intake sub plate than a welded 1/4" 'bridge'.
thats what I said . Still have to weld . btw , the EX514 had the square type stud boss's for years .

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2011, 10:17 pm

I really no not have time have a sword fight........you said it doesn't address the issue. I said it does address the issue at a less than perfect level.
I'm sure the EX-514 thing is/was great.....but that is not were my idea came from. I am glad the TFS stuff does not have the EX chamber etc.

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2011, 10:20 pm

DanH wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
DanH wrote:the one peice intake stand doesnt address exhaust problem . . still must get a soild welded exhaust stand to the intake stand . plus the longer bolts
I.M.O. it does address the issue..... albeit not perfectly. In lieu of one solid bar I'd rather have a solid welded exh. to intake sub plate than a welded 1/4" 'bridge'.
thats what I said . Still have to weld . btw , the EX514 had the square type stud boss's for years .

And We/I did not tell anyone to make it 'square'......just more of it.

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  richter69 on April 20th 2011, 10:22 pm

Sword fights are cool, and I'm not talkin about the fleshy type either you homos............ Laughing
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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  Lem Evans on April 20th 2011, 10:25 pm

Butterfly........

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  138 on April 20th 2011, 10:30 pm

do the EX514 heads even have an 18bolt version?... probably not Wink

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  DanH on April 20th 2011, 10:36 pm

richter69 wrote:Sword fights are cool, and I'm not talkin about the fleshy type either you homos............ Laughing
Jon your sword must be worn down by now. Any tips (info tips) on a sword fight ?

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  richter69 on April 20th 2011, 11:11 pm

I'm more the type to bring a gun to a knife/sword fight..........
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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  cool40 on April 20th 2011, 11:33 pm

richter69 wrote:I'm more the type to bring a gun to a knife/sword fight..........
good way to get shot! Laughing
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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  BOSS 429 on April 21st 2011, 8:15 am

please note i didnt read all the posts

first altho not uncommon to shim (use washers under the stands) theres not enought thread in the head in your case.but the real problem is the rocker them selfs, that style shaft rocker isnt worth crap on an engine like yours, you need a system the at least 2 of the stands bolt to each other, get rid of the ones you have before it kills your engine
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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  chappy89 on April 21st 2011, 10:37 am

DanH wrote:the one peice intake stand doesnt address exhaust problem . . still must get a soild welded exhaust stand to the intake stand . plus the longer bolts

Yeah. The one piece intake stand gets bolted down, then the individual exhaust stands get bolted down. After I get everything bolted and set, I the weld the exhaust stands to the intake stand...

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  chappy89 on April 21st 2011, 10:37 am

BOSS 429 wrote:please note i didnt read all the posts

first altho not uncommon to shim (use washers under the stands) theres not enought thread in the head in your case.but the real problem is the rocker them selfs, that style shaft rocker isnt worth crap on an engine like yours, you need a system the at least 2 of the stands bolt to each other, get rid of the ones you have before it kills your engine

That's why I posted that T&D is making me a one piece stand

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  chappy89 on April 21st 2011, 10:40 am

138 wrote:I noticed that the A heads I just received have a larger square stud boss/mounting pad as opposed to the round ones seen in all the pictures available on the net...the larger square version would seem to be better suited for building a one piece shaft rocker stand platform around.





I wish mine looked like that

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Re: 598 turbo motor keeps breaking the head

Post  chappy89 on April 21st 2011, 10:46 am

c.evans wrote:138,

The TFS A-460-18 bolt heads are the very latest BBF 3X castings. They are the ones with the square rocker pads. So I had TFS (as Lem says, the TFS guys are great to work with) send one of the BBF 3X castings down to W.W. Engineering and asked them to make us a one piece rocker stand.

As already mentioned, the intake stand is one piece and the four exhaust stands butt up against it. It's just due the the complicated logistics of the different cant angles, the top row of head bolts, the exhaust pushrod slots, and a few other factors as to why it can't all be a one piece stand. However, at the end of the day, it will be a better piece and any good engine builder can weld the four exhaust stands to the one intake stand which runs the length of the head,,,,, AFTER proper rocker arm geometry has been established.

Hope this helps,

Charlie

Charlie,

My heads are the TFS-BBF3 heads as well...and they don't have the big square pads. Mine are the old round style. I see you have "3X" castings listed. Are these a newer version than the 3 heads?

Just curious.

Ryan

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