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Another roller lifter top end oiling post

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Post  bigford632 February 16th 2020, 3:25 pm

I have been seeing a lot of posts about this subject lately and I had a few questions for the experts on this topic.

It seems a lot of the solid roller lifters need a little help oiling the top end these days, in Lems words 'just a little scratch'.

Are you guys seeing this with the newer high pressure pin oiling designs such as the Crower Endure-X, Comp Sportsman, and Isky EZ Roll designs? I'm wondering this because the Comp Sportsman lifters specifically actually have 2 holes to oil the pushrod if I'm not mistaken.

Also how would bushed lifter bores with .060" feed holes change the strategy if any? And when running the lifter bushings with the .060" feed holes do you guys still see people running the block restrictors? I had access to an engine built by Ted at Engine Systems and it had lifter bushings and he had put at least a .120" hole in the bushings and was running about an .080" restrictor in the block.

My current build is an A460 block with bushed lifter bores with the .060" feed holes and I'm not running any restrictors in the block at all and I was surprised to see minimal oil to the top end during initial start up. Running the Kaase pump and the Comp Sportsman lifters and has a rock solid 80 PSI of oil pressure at idle hot. That was with Shell Rotella 15w40 for the initial start up only, will be running Schaeffers in it going forward.

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Post  HPbyGD February 28th 2020, 4:38 pm

I have Morel's bushed rollers in a stock block and was a little surprised after looking at the oiling that I was going to have to slot the edge of the lifter to get oil to the top end . If this was a possible problem why didn't they give a heads up ?
GD

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Post  rmcomprandy February 29th 2020, 11:27 am

HPbyGD wrote:  I have Morel's bushed rollers in a stock block and was a little surprised after looking at the oiling that I was going to have to slot the edge of the lifter to get oil to the top end .  If this was a possible problem why didn't they give a heads up ?
                   GD

It is no problem when the engine is running ... that type lifter oiling relies upon lifter bore clearance and NEEDS the up & down inertia of a fast moving lifter to pass oil.
Simply priming an engine and only turning it over by hand will not get much oil to the top end, if any; it NEEDS to be running with little oil restriction to the lifter galleries.

Companies, (even O.E.M. companies), have been using this type "edge orifice" top end lifter oiling for years with absolutely no issues arising from it.

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Post  Dave De March 1st 2020, 10:28 am

Contrary to what Randy is saying my Morels would not flow oil with the engine running on some engines. Lem has said that all you need is a scratch. This is hard to do on a hardened lifter. If you use a dremel with a thin disk that will be best. Rotate the dremel wheel away from the oil hole.

I had the worst experience with bushed Morels. Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved. I didnt get two full seasons out of the package and its now junk.
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Post  Lem Evans March 1st 2020, 1:45 pm

Dave De wrote:Contrary to what Randy is saying my Morels would not flow oil with the engine running on some engines. Lem has said that all you need is a scratch. This is hard to do on a hardened lifter. If you use a dremel with a thin disk that will be best. Rotate the dremel wheel away from the oil hole.

I had the worst experience with bushed Morels. Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved. I didnt get two full seasons out of the package and its now junk.

The bushed bearing lifters are problematic.

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Post  Dave De March 1st 2020, 2:51 pm

Lem Evans wrote:
Dave De wrote:Contrary to what Randy is saying my Morels would not flow oil with the engine running on some engines. Lem has said that all you need is a scratch. This is hard to do on a hardened lifter. If you use a dremel with a thin disk that will be best. Rotate the dremel wheel away from the oil hole.

I had the worst experience with bushed Morels. Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved. I didnt get two full seasons out of the package and its now junk.

The bushed bearing lifters are problematic.

Lem,
I know that you had nothing to do with my cam/lifter problems but its not like I had 1,000 pounds over the nose. My cam specs at .750" lift and 730 pounds over the nose should not be an issue. This was a $1,700 failure.

I would suggest that anyone with new Morels in the box should return them and go elsewhere. At this time I dont have good experience with any roller lifter to give a recommendation.
Also I dont need to hear about maintenance, I was on top of it continually. And ran synthetic oil after break-in.
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Post  J.Toney March 9th 2020, 8:08 pm

Dave De wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Dave De wrote:Contrary to what Randy is saying my Morels would not flow oil with the engine running on some engines. Lem has said that all you need is a scratch. This is hard to do on a hardened lifter. If you use a dremel with a thin disk that will be best. Rotate the dremel wheel away from the oil hole.

I had the worst experience with bushed Morels. Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved. I didnt get two full seasons out of the package and its now junk.

The bushed bearing lifters are problematic.

Lem,
I know that you had nothing to do with my cam/lifter problems but its not like I had 1,000 pounds over the nose. My cam specs at .750" lift and 730 pounds over the nose should not be an issue. This was a $1,700 failure.

I would suggest that anyone with new Morels in the box should return them and go elsewhere. At this time I dont have good experience with any roller lifter to give a recommendation.
Also I dont need to hear about maintenance, I was on top of it continually. And ran synthetic oil after break-in.

Dave, did you end up using BAM's?
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Post  Lem Evans March 9th 2020, 9:23 pm

I have a batch of BAM coming

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Post  Dave De March 9th 2020, 9:51 pm

J.Toney wrote:
Dave De wrote:
Lem Evans wrote:
Dave De wrote:Contrary to what Randy is saying my Morels would not flow oil with the engine running on some engines. Lem has said that all you need is a scratch. This is hard to do on a hardened lifter. If you use a dremel with a thin disk that will be best. Rotate the dremel wheel away from the oil hole.

I had the worst experience with bushed Morels. Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved. I didnt get two full seasons out of the package and its now junk.

The bushed bearing lifters are problematic.

Lem,
I know that you had nothing to do with my cam/lifter problems but its not like I had 1,000 pounds over the nose. My cam specs at .750" lift and 730 pounds over the nose should not be an issue. This was a $1,700 failure.

I would suggest that anyone with new Morels in the box should return them and go elsewhere. At this time I dont have good experience with any roller lifter to give a recommendation.
Also I dont need to hear about maintenance, I was on top of it continually. And ran synthetic oil after break-in.

Dave, did you end up using BAM's?

Yeah another test and now going with bushed BAM's. The cam grind this time is only 640# over the nose. More duration on the intake and less on the exhaust. Also using those roundy round 1300 springs from PAC.
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Post  J.Toney June 27th 2020, 8:38 am

Dave De wrote:Contrary to what Randy is saying my Morels would not flow oil with the engine running on some engines. Lem has said that all you need is a scratch. This is hard to do on a hardened lifter. If you use a dremel with a thin disk that will be best. Rotate the dremel wheel away from the oil hole.

I had the worst experience with bushed Morels. Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved. I didnt get two full seasons out of the package and its now junk.

For comparison/reference, will you be using the BAM's with an OE block? Happen to check lifter body/bore clearance? On my LIMITED experience:
1. A460 block with BAM's very little oil with priming, put a scratch in them and major change in delivery. Added more oil, and all the time.

2. OE block with BAM's, more oil than the #1, but lifter body postion in the bore (cam lobe up or down) had direct effect on how it oiled. Which leads me understand Randy's advice on how the lifter is engineered to run. I'm undecided on whether to "scratch" these one's or test run them on the stand first.

It should be noted, I haven't ran either engine yet, so no concrete feedback here. Sorry.
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Post  Dave De June 27th 2020, 11:01 am

J.Toney wrote:
Dave De wrote:Contrary to what Randy is saying my Morels would not flow oil with the engine running on some engines. Lem has said that all you need is a scratch. This is hard to do on a hardened lifter. If you use a dremel with a thin disk that will be best. Rotate the dremel wheel away from the oil hole.

I had the worst experience with bushed Morels. Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved. I didnt get two full seasons out of the package and its now junk.

For comparison/reference, will you be using the BAM's with an OE block? Happen to check lifter body/bore clearance? On my LIMITED experience:
1. A460 block with BAM's very little oil with priming, put a scratch in them and major change in delivery. Added more oil, and all the time.

2. OE block with BAM's, more oil than the #1, but lifter body postion in the bore (cam lobe up or down) had direct effect on how it oiled. Which leads me understand Randy's advice on how the lifter is engineered to run. I'm undecided on whether to "scratch" these one's or test run them on the stand first.

It should be noted, I haven't ran either engine yet, so no concrete feedback here. Sorry.

I wish I had more to tell you at this time but my cam was delayed from Covid. After four months it came in. The holdup was the core coming from Callies was held up until I had the grinder shift to another company. I should be priming it next week after I get my manifold work done. Lifters are BAM bushed type. Block is A460 and I havent checked the bore/lifter clearance. They are as tight as the Morels that came out. I stated that the spring pressure was going to be in the mid 600's. Its actually at 550 over the nose per cam grinders specs. I am concerned about this being so low but I've got to trust the grinder on this. When I oil this I will see if lifter position changes the oiling up top. If it doesnt oil well I will scratch them.
Thanks for the intel from your project.
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Post  norm July 7th 2020, 5:44 pm

Dave De wrote: . Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved.

Did the rollers get a flat spot? How did you determine the wheel was slipping?
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Post  Dave De July 7th 2020, 10:51 pm

norm wrote:
Dave De wrote: . Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved.

Did the rollers get a flat spot? How did you determine the wheel was slipping?

No flat spots on the lifter wheels.
The cam lobes 14 of them have a trough groove where the lifter wheel contacted the lobe. The lifter wheels have a streaked surface that looks like the cam lobe material was rolled onto it. The amount of material is small.
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Post  rmcomprandy July 9th 2020, 10:06 am

Dave De wrote:
norm wrote:
Dave De wrote: . Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved.

Did the rollers get a flat spot? How did you determine the wheel was slipping?

No flat spots on the lifter wheels.
The cam lobes 14 of them have a trough groove where the lifter wheel contacted the lobe. The lifter wheels have a streaked surface that looks like the cam lobe material was rolled onto it. The amount of material is small.

Some high-end oval track users of roller cams glass bead the surface of the lobes to get a texture so that takes much longer to happen.

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Post  gt350hr July 10th 2020, 4:34 pm

Dave De wrote:
norm wrote:
Dave De wrote: . Wheel bearing drag is heavy with the wheels slipping on the cam lobe where the lobe was eventually grooved.

Did the rollers get a flat spot? How did you determine the wheel was slipping?

No flat spots on the lifter wheels.
The cam lobes 14 of them have a trough groove where the lifter wheel contacted the lobe. The lifter wheels have a streaked surface that looks like the cam lobe material was rolled onto it. The amount of material is small.
This "tracking" happens on many roller cams regardless of bearing type. The heat treat is not very thick in that area and the lobe "compresses" some because of the lifter hammering on the lobe.

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Post  norm July 10th 2020, 7:18 pm

gt350hr wrote:
   This "tracking" happens on many roller cams regardless of bearing type. The heat treat is not very thick in that area and the lobe "compresses" some because of the lifter hammering on the lobe.

How hard is the lobe surface generally and how deep is the hardness?
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Post  rmcomprandy July 11th 2020, 12:48 pm

norm wrote:
gt350hr wrote:
   This "tracking" happens on many roller cams regardless of bearing type. The heat treat is not very thick in that area and the lobe "compresses" some because of the lifter hammering on the lobe.

How hard is the lobe surface generally and how deep is the hardness?

They all vary because a finished camshaft normally begins with a new UGL, (un-ground lobe), core which is pre ground to a determined, close lobe configuration before heat treating. How much the separation and finished lobe profile differ from that UGL will usually determine the hardness depth.
If there is a question, then that camshaft can be nitrided for a more consistent surface hardness.

There are soft round lobe UGL's which can be ground to a couple thou larger than the finished lobe profile, then sent out and hardened but, need to then be finished ground again to that same profile which guaranties the hardness depth but, those cost about twice the normal cost and usually twice the lead time so, most people won't go that route.
A lot of O.E.M. Factory supported race teams use cams like this.

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Post  J.Toney July 21st 2020, 5:50 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHzStg5w-xQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QwkPaXuCVc
Just sharing visual info FWIW
4.300 stroke
.003-.0035 mains
.0025-.0028 rods
I did not measure lifter/bore clearance
BAM bronze bushed lifters
UN-modified
40wt Cen-Pe-Co
This is 2k RPM
Mudbog application.
MY thoughts are:
-run as is, monitor spring pressures afters say 5-10 hrs run time. This engine will go dyno. If pressures or obvious issues, “scratch” lifters.
-scratch them now
Part of my thoughts as I want to keep as much oil in the bottom it as possible.
Input is welcome.

I have another engine almost ready to run with very similar parts, BUT new A460 block and "scratched" lifters. When running, we'll show the same test.
I KNOW these two engines showed different visual results priming. The A460 engine had very little oil to rockers on priming, pushing me to scratch them.
The D1 still didn't have a lot of oil on priming, but surely more. I assume more lifter/bore clearance is a factor, but IDK.
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